Revisiting the 'Report' and Its Author

DATE October 19, 2007 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Ben Karlin of "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart" and
"The Colbert Report" discusses his career
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

We know that many public radio listeners start the day with the news on
"Morning Edition" and end the day with the fake news on "The Daily Show" and
"The Colbert Report." Today we salute our colleagues on the fake news side of
journalism.

"The Daily Show" just launched a new Web site with about 13,000 video clips
spanning the show's history, giving us all a chance to catch up on moments we
missed. Here's a clip from earlier this week when Jon Stewart commented on a
recent speech by General Ricardo Sanchez, who commanded the coalition forces
in Iraq from 2003 to 2004. In that speech the general said, `We're facing a
nightmare with no end in sight.'

(Soundbite of "The Daily Show")

Mr. JON STEWART: Sir, if your estimate was so dim so early on, why didn't
you tell us this back then? Why didn't you tell us then?

General RICARDO SANCHEZ: The last thing that you want is for currently
serving general officers to stand up against a political leadership.

Mr. STEWART: Really, that's the last thing you want? Let's look at
Sanchez's hierarchy of bad things. The worst thing ever? Standing up to
political leadership. And that's preferable to--what's the phrase?

Gen. SANCHEZ: A nightmare with no end in sight.

Mr. STEWART: Look for more of these tremendous insights in Ricardo Sanchez's
new book, "I Have Difficulty Judging the Worstness of Things."

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: To find out what goes on behind the scenes at "The Daily Show" I spoke
with Ben Karlin. He joined the show as head writer in 1999, shortly after Jon
Stewart became the anchor. Karlin became the executive producer and
co-created "The Colbert Report." He left both shows at the end of last year.
When I spoke with him in April 2006, I asked him to describe the premise of
Nate Corddry's "Daily Show" report on how Vice President Cheney shot his
friend Harry Whittington in the face during a hunting trip.

Mr. BEN KARLIN: Well, it was really one of those things where, as more
details came out, you kind of realized the story was a red herring because
what was most scandalous about the story, in our opinion, as we read reports,
was not, you know, what happened between Cheney and Whittington, but actually
the fact that the vice president goes on these particular kinds of hunts. The
more details were revealed, kind of like deep into the story as we were
reading them, we're just like, `Wait a second. People go and shoot like 70
caged birds, and they're right there and then they're just released? That's
not hunting.' And we just couldn't get our heads around like thinking about
hunting as this, you know, pursuit which is involved with has some skill and
you have to go out and you're in the brush all day. And you, you know, it's
cold and you're up at the crack of dawn. And all this idea that you have
about hunting, and we just kind of said, like, this here is really the scandal
of this story, that this thing goes on and is anyway--this is the furthest
thing removed from hunting you can possibly imagine. So we said, like, let's
actually try to do--this is the closest to I think actual journalism we really
go right up to that point. And so we tried to find a place that would let us
come on and do one of these hunts.

GROSS: Well, let's hear the opening of this piece and then we'll talk more
about how you put it together. So here's Nate Corddry on "The Daily Show."

(Soundbite of "The Daily Show")

Mr. NATE CORDDRY: When the vice president went on a private hunting trip
last month, he took a lot of heat for shooting his friend. But the truth is,
he's actually a crack shot who's downed as many as 70 pheasants in a single
day. And he's done it on canned hunts, where birds are raised to be shot. I
wanted to hunt pheasant like the vice president so I made a reservation at the
Tobacco Stick Hunting Preserve in North Carolina.

Unidentified Man #1: We release birds per order of the customer, and the
customer is able to go to the field and hunt for these birds.

Mr. CORDDRY: It's like regular hunting, but with a menu.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Man #1: Quail are $7 each.

Mr. CORDDRY: OK.

Man #1: The chucker is $13 each. The pheasant is $16. And we use pointing
dogs for 75 each.

Mr. CORDDRY: Can I shoot the dog?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Man #1: That would be a very serious issue to shoot the dog.

Mr. CORDDRY: So I can't shoot the...

Man #1: Can't shoot the dog.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. CORDDRY: I was pretty sure that the vice president would get to shoot
the dog, but 140 pheasant would have to quench my bird lust. But would my
thousand dollars ensure this was better than regular hunting?

Unidentified Man #2: Well, here the birds are in the field for you. You know
they're there. It's a sure thing. The birds are here. Now, in a wild bird
hunt you may find birds and you may not find birds.

Mr. CORDDRY: And who really has time to hunt and track prey anymore?

Man #2: It's a sure thing.

Mr. CORDDRY: One thing I've always hated about hunting, the challenge.

(Soundbite of laughter)

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: So that's an excerpt from "The Daily Show" of a Nate Corddry report.
My guest is Ben Karlin. He's an executive producer of the show, former head
writer of the show, been with the show for eight years.

So, Ben, explain a little bit more what goes on at this ranch and how the
birds are actually shot by the people who've pay to hunt there.

Mr. KARLIN: Well, I mean, they're basically kept in a coop. And you walk up
and you look at what they have to offer in terms of the menu and you pick out
the amount of birds you want to shoot. And what they do is, they take the
birds in a crate and they put them in the back of a truck. They drive you and
the birds in the back of the truck. So you're--it's like this awkward, you
know, dead bird walking moment where you drive to the field. You're in the
front seat, the birds are in the back.

The guides, if you can call them that, will then take the crates, go out into
the brush. They will then dump the bird upside down so it's disoriented into
the thicket. OK? You will then get in position. And then the guide will
nudge the bird, like roust it basically, and it will, you know, being confused
and disoriented, it will attempt to fly. And it flies up and you shoot it.
So the one, like, nanosecond of freedom that this animal, you know,
experiences in its life is the nanosecond before it dies. And that's what the
vice president does.

And we literally could not believe it. We sat there in the editing room and
we could not believe that people do this. Because, truthfully, you know, I
went to school in Wisconsin. My roommate was a hunter. I very much liked the
idea. I don't hunt myself, but I liked the idea of it's, you know, deer
season and you go out. His dad was actually a bow hunter, and would go out
every year and would bag a couple deer. And I don't have any kind of ethical
problem with that at all. This, to me, seems like, very cheating.

GROSS: How did you get permission from this hunting ranch to shoot there?
Did they know what you were really up to? Did they know "The Daily Show"?

Mr. KARLIN: Well, I mean, yes and now. I mean, I don't think--I think when
you go and say `we want to do a profile of, you know, your operation,' you
don't necessarily have to say, `And, oh, by the way, we're going to belittle
it.' We don't need to necessarily offer that kind of disclosure. We don't lie
about what we're doing and who we are, but we also don't necessarily say,
`Here is the jokes that we're going to tell at your expense.' So it's kind of
a balance, but we always are truthful to the degree that we don't deny, you
know, where we work and who we are and what we're doing.

GROSS: But with the questions that Nate Corddry asked, they have to assume
that either he's a satirist or he's learning disabled.

Mr. KARLIN: Yes. Yeah, but I've got to tell you more often than not, it's
learning disabled. It's not, you know--people don't, especially when you get
into a world that is, you know, fairly esoteric and not necessarily one that's
drenched in a lot of exposure to media or in a media center like New York. I
don't think that there is necessarily that same skepticism, that `what's this
person's angle?' necessarily. You know, we do a fairly good job, better now
than we used to, of trying as much as possible to put the onus of stupidity
and creepiness on our people and not...

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. KARLIN: We don't want to make anyone look bad unless they're doing
something really horrible. And, in this case, these people that we were
interviewing weren't, I wouldn't say, the perpetrators. They were just people
that were working there. So we just kind of used them to kind of get the
information out and to kind of make some points in general.

GROSS: I know another thing that you often do on "The Daily Show" is take
clips from past interviews or past press conferences that completely
contradict what that same person has just said and play them back to back. So
you take a current clip of somebody in the news, often somebody in the Bush
administration, and juxtapose that with a clip of them saying exactly the
opposite thing weeks or months ago.

And I'll play an example of that. And this is, I think this is called "Bush
vs. Bush." And it's President Bush from the time when he was governor and
campaigning for the presidency juxtaposed with what President Bush has said
about Iraq. So let's hear a short clip of this.

(Soundbite of "The Daily Show")

Mr. STEWART: Mr. President, you won the coin toss. The first question will
go to you. Why is the United States of America using its power to change
governments in foreign countries?

President GEORGE W. BUSH: We must stand up for our security, and for the
permanent rights and the hopes of mankind. The United States of America will
make that stand.

Mr. STEWART: Well, certainly that represents a bold new doctrine in foreign
policy, Mr. President.

Governor Bush, do you agree with that?

Governor GEORGE W. BUSH: Yeah. I'm not so sure the role of the United
States is to go around the world and say this is the way it's got to be.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. STEWART: Hm. All right. Well, that's interesting. Well, that's a
difference of opinion, and certainly that's what this country is about,
differences of opinion.

Mr. President, let me just get specific. Why are we in Iraq?

Pres. BUSH: We will be changing the regime of Iraq for the good of the Iraqi
people.

Mr. STEWART: Governor, then I'd like to hear your response on that.

Gov. BUSH: If we're an arrogant nation, then they'll resent us. I think one
for us to end up being viewed as the ugly American is for us to go around the
world saying, `We do it this way, so should you.'

Mr. STEWART: Well, that's an excellent point. I don't think you can argue
with that.

Mr. President, is the idea to just build a new country that we like better?

Pres. BUSH: We will tear down the apparatus of terror. And we will help you
to build a new Iraq that is prosperous and free.

Gov. BUSH: I don't think our troops ought to be used for what's called
nation building.

Mr. STEWART: Well, that's fair enough, governor.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's an excerpt from "The Daily Show." My guest is Ben Karlin, who
is an executive producer and former head writer of the show.

So, Ben, do you remember how this sketch was written and what the process was
like of finding the juxtaposed footage of the president?

Mr. KARLIN: Yeah. I mean, again, most things start with kind of a just a
concept or an idea. And this was kind of born out of this idea that everyone
is saying so and so is a flip-flopper, or this person is not consistent. And
that's a label that people always try, especially in the last couple of
elections, that people put on, that was a very strong tactic that Republicans
used against Democrats. And we always, you know, believe that it's very
difficult to be 100 percent consistent all the time, especially when cameras
are always going to be on you. You're always going to be caught one way or
the other. And we felt very strongly that Bush had kind of gotten this
relatively free ride on this whole idea that he himself hadn't changed
positions pretty radically on several things. So the idea then becomes to
find the best examples to animate that.

The challenge there, more than anything, is to try to make them funny. You
know, you want to make a point, but you've got to really be very careful not
to kind of dip into being just super didactic.

GROSS: Now, you've said that there are things where you think that the
straight press has given a free ride to people in the administration or in
Congress. How do you see the role of "The Daily Show" as a kind of adjunct to
the press?

Mr. KARLIN: By definition, we exist as a reaction to the press in terms of
commenting off of what they are doing or what they're not doing. But as far
as like a defined role, we really try not to get into that too, too much, only
because of the desire and the need to just produce something funny every day.
And the kind of what it means or what are we doing exactly, doesn't really
come into it like that philosophically, I would have to say.

When you study it or--not study it, but when you look back and say, `Oh, this
was this' or, `this was that.' Then you kind of can say, `Oh, well, we were
actually being a commentator in the same way that an editorial cartoon would
be, you know, a comment on the day's news.' But I don't think we necessarily
ever start a meeting by saying, `OK, well, here's what the press is doing.
Here's what they're not doing. Let's do this.' That just can't enter into our
process, just mainly because of efficiency. It just wouldn't work to add that
added level of mission.

GROSS: Ben Karlin is the former executive producer of "The Daily Show" and
"The Colbert Report."

Before we get back to fake news...

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Rob Corddry discusses his career on "The Daily Show"
TERRY GROSS, host:

Rob Corddry was a reporter on "The Daily Show" for four years before leaving
last August. His younger brother, Nate, was on the show for about 10 months.
They joined us together earlier this year. This is an excerpt of my
conversation with Rob Corddry.

Rob, would you describe the type of character you typically played as a
correspondent on "The Daily Show"?

Mr. ROB CORDDRY: Well, it's interesting because characters on "The Daily
Show" are largely audience defined. When Ed Helms and I first started on "The
Daily Show," we just imitated Stephen Colbert for a year or two. I guess the
audience would pick up certain nuances in our performance, and they started
calling me sort of a, you know, frattish boor. And the writers started
writing me that way. But I always like to play it as--we're all stupid.
That's the secret to playing a "Daily Show" corespondent is that you're dumb.
But my character had the advantage of knowing he was dumb and didn't care.

GROSS: And is that something that you figured out after you started doing it,
like through the kind of feedback you were getting or a direction you
consciously headed in?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: It's a lot easier to interview these people if you have
this exaggerated unearned confidence, especially when you know that you're
dumb and you still think you're better than they are.

GROSS: Well, you've interviewed a lot of people where it's hard to tell,
like, what did they know in advance? Particularly earlier in your appearances
on "The Daily Show" before it became quite the phenomenon that it did...

Mr. R. CORDDRY: Right.

GROSS: Did they know what was going on? Were they in on the joke? Did they
know there was going to be a joke?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: When I first started, there were researchers and associate
producers who would book the interviews there, who would still say, `We're
with Comedy Central's news program.' That is no longer possible. So I would
start every interview by saying, `Look, you know the show. You know we're a
comedy show, but I'm really going to ask you about, you know, your opinions or
your passions, whatever you're here for. I want you to speak about it
seriously. If I tell you the sky is green, please correct me and say the sky
is blue. Don't try and follow my logic because we're looking for straight
answers. And, unfortunately, I'm the jackass here.' And a lot of times people
would be...

GROSS: Right.

Mr. R. CORDDRY: ...a lot of times people would try and be funny, and we'd
have to sort of steer them away from that. And even at times we'd have to
say, `Look, I think you're a very funny guy, but none of this is going to make
it on the air. Please just answer my question. Why do you hate gays?' Or
something like that.

GROSS: So what are some of the responses that surprised you the most?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: Oh, God. I had one guy--well, speaking of hating gays, I
was speaking to probably the most homophobic person I've ever met in my life.
But he told me that he worked for some family council in Philadelphia, and he
said that he loved gay people. And not only that, he, if they were drowning,
put him in a sea of gay people, and he would breathe life into their mouths.

Mr. NATE CORDDRY: My God!

Mr. R. CORDDRY: And we murdered this guy. We murdered him. And he called
me up the next day and asked me out to lunch, he loved the piece so much.

Mr. N. CORDDRY: Oh my gosh!

GROSS: Now, in addition to your interviews, of course, you did a lot of like
stand-up reports, where you'd like, you know, talk with Jon Stewart and, you
know, report on something. In fact, I want to play one. And this is one that
you did shortly after President Bush had announced that there would be some
kind of investigation into charges, you know, allegations that there was price
fixing and other problems in the oil industry. Do you want to say anything
about this before we hear it?

Mr. N. CORDDRY: `I don't remember it.'

GROSS: Well, a profound...

Mr. R. CORDDRY: I spent most of my time there drunk. I'm a functional
alcoholic, barely.

GROSS: OK. Well, this is very funny, so let's hear it.

(Soundbite from "The Daily Show")

Mr. JON STEWART: For more on Bush's aggressive new stance against the oil
companies, we turn to our senior petroleum analyst Rob Corddry.

Rob...

(Soundbite of cheers and applause)

Mr. STEWART: ...the president of the United States didn't...

(Soundbite of cheers and applause)

Mr. STEWART: ...didn't just talk tough today. Rob, the president didn't
just talk tough. He also announced that he was taking this initiative. Take
a look.

President GEORGE W. BUSH: I'm also directing the Department of Justice to
work with the FTC and the Energy Department to conduct inquiries into illegal
manipulation or cheating related to the current gasoline prices.

Mr. STEWART: He announced a query into the inner workings of the oil
industry--a probe, if you will. Tell us, Rob, what will this investigation
entail?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: Well, for certain, it will be a long, arduous process, Jon.
Here's my guess as to how it might proceed. Now, this is the Oval Office
right here. The president plans to leave it, walk down this hallway to the
vice president's office.

Mr. STEWART: Now, let me ask you a question. Rob. What...

(Soundbite of laughter, applause)

Mr. STEWART: What are those black markings? If I may, what are those black
Xes represent?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: Oh, those are the oil executives who maintain a 24-hour
presence in Cheney's office. Anyway, Jon, the president will then begin the
probe by saying to the oil executives, `Hey, Dave. Lee, how you doing? Good
to see you, Jimbo. You guys been a price fixin'?' And if the answer is yes,
the president will take the appropriate action.

Mr. STEWART: Which would be?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: Which would be classified.

(Soundbite of laughter)

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: And that was Rob Corddry with Jon Stewart on "The Daily Show."

Rob, did you start watching the news differently after you started doing "The
Daily Show"?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: Oh, yeah. You can't help but watch the news differently.
And, you know, in the obvious way, just with that "Daily Show" sort of slant.

GROSS: Which is in part looking at how news reporters and anchors carry
themselves on TV?

Mr. R. CORDDRY: You know, that's my favorite part about "The Daily Show,"
is making fun of the news people themselves and the trappings of a news
organization, you know, that is my--right down to the chirons or the news
alerts, you know, I mean, that's some of my favorite, most satirizable--I just
made that word up--aspects of the news.

GROSS: Rob Corddry was a reporter on "The Daily Show" for four years. Our
tribute to fake news continues in the second half of the show. I'm Terry
Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Portion of Jon Stewart interview from 2000
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross. We're saluting some of America's top
fake newsmen, so I'm sure you're wondering how come we're not featuring an
interview with Jon Stewart. Well, I interviewed Jon Stewart in 2000, before I
started seriously watching "The Daily Show," and I didn't quite get the show
or Stewart, so the interview didn't go that well. Here's what I mean.

(Soundbite of "Fresh Air")

GROSS: Jon Stewart, I first heard about you when you signed for the MTV show
"The Jon Stewart Show" in...

Mr. JON STEWART: First of all, thank you for calling me Jon Stewart. I
think that's very nice. To use my whole name. Terry Gross.

GROSS: Oh, oh. Yes. All right. OK. Um. Um.

Mr. JON STEWART: You know what's nice about this, Terry?

GROSS: What's nice about this?

Mr. STEWART: You don't find me amusing in the slightest.

GROSS: No, I do! Now, why do you think--see, now wait--now let me--wait.
I'm going to stop right here. I'm going to stop you right here. First of
all...

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: OK, so I blew it in that 2000 interview. But I'm really hoping to get
a second chance. We'd so much like to have Jon Stewart back on the show when
he has some time, which we realize he never does.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Larry Wilmore, senior black correspondent on "The
Daily Show," his mixed-class background, specific sketches on
"The Daily Show," and his type of humor
TERRY GROSS, host:

Now let's continue with our tribute to some of America's top fake news men.
When "The Daily Show" deals with the thorny issues of race, they call on their
senior black correspondent, Larry Wilmore. I spoke with him earlier this
year.

So how do you look for the right stories to cover for "The Daily Show"?

Mr. LARRY WILMORE: You know what? It's so amazing how stories just kind of
fall out of the air, you know? As you're thinking of--it's almost really hard
to answer that, because you just look at something that happens and then just
think about it and come up with a point of view on it. Like, for instance,
D.J. thought it would be a good idea to do something on Black History Month.
So I just thought of something for Black History Month, you know, the fact
that I wasn't that crazy about it. I thought it would be a funny take, you
know, that I was kind of bored with it, you know? But he just thought it
would be a good idea to do something on Black History Month.

Where, on the other hand, I thought it would be a good idea to do something on
Martin Luther King's birthday, so it was just that simple, you know. And even
before Barack Obama announced he was--well, when he announced he was going to
make his decision to run in Springfield, like a month before he did, I thought
it would be a good idea to do a piece on that. So we had planned a month in
advance to do something on Obama's announcement, and then some things just pop
up at the last second, like the Michael Richards did that whole thing in the
comedy club. I mean, that stuff is like manna from heaven, it falls in your
lap. You know?

GROSS: OK. So this is an excerpt of Larry Wilmore's take on Black History
Month.

Mr. WILMORE: OK.

GROSS: So let's hear it and then we'll talk about it.

(Soundbite of "The Daily Show")

Mr. JON STEWART: As you know, February is Black History Month. Here to
offer his insight, "Daily Show" senior black historian Larry Wilmore.

Larry, thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.

Mr. WILMORE: OK, first of all, Jon, relax. It's not Black History Month
yet. We all have about 45 minutes to blow off some steam before we bow our
heads in solemn reverence for Harriet Tubman and the Tuskogee airmen.

Mr. STEWART: Larry, I don't think you should undersell contributions of the
underground railroad and black pilots in World War II. I think it's obviously
worth taking time to commemorate these achievements.

Mr. WILMORE: Don't let me stop you.

Mr. STEWART: Larry, I feel stupid. Don't you feel that Black History Month
serves a purpose?

Mr. WILMORE: Yes, the purpose of making up for centuries of oppression with
28 days of trivia. You know what? I'd rather we got casinos.

Mr. STEWART: Larry, it's not...

(Soundbite of applause, cheering)

Mr. STEWART: I'm perhaps not in a great position here, but I don't think
it's trivia. I think it's important.

Mr. WILMORE: Really? OK. Name the important stuff.

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. STEWART: Well, like--like you were saying, Harriet Tubman.

Mr. WILMORE: All right.

Mr. STEWART: And the Tuskogee airmen.

Mr. WILMORE: OK.

Mr. STEWART: And the fellow that invented the peanut.

Mr. WILMORE: Uh-huh.

Mr. STEWART: And the heart operation dude.

Mr. WILMORE: Right, right, OK. All right. Now we're at February 5th, OK?
By the 8th, we'll be down to the Wayans brothers, Jon. Seriously. And not
even the famous ones. Zeppo.

Mr. STEWART: Larry, what are you suggesting that we do?

Mr. WILMORE: Jon, let's be honest. Black History Month is a drag, OK?
White people have to pretend to care about black people, black people have to
pretend they care about history, it's a lose-lose, OK?

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: That's really funny.

Mr. WILMORE: Thank you.

GROSS: That's Larry Wilmore from "The Daily Show."

So why did you want to do something on Black History Month, and do something
that put it in such a skeptical light?

Mr. WILMORE: You know what? I think part of this kind of character that
I've come up with is looking for equality in different ways, you know, like
wanting to be ignored or wanting to be dismissed like the way other groups are
in the same way. And maybe there's a little too much reverence for some of
these things like black history, thought it might it be a good satirical
jumping off point.

Plus, every black comedian I've ever seen talk about black history has always
mad at the fact that it doesn't get enough attention, you know? It's always,
`How come there are only 28 days in February and it's Black History Month?'
You know, jokes like that. So I thought it would be funny to take the
opposite tact, like 28 days is way too long, you know. We could accomplish
this, you know, in a PBS special, ladies and gentlemen, you know.

GROSS: Do people often take you the wrong way and think that like you're
really putting down the contributions of African-Americans in American
history?

Mr. WILMORE: I haven't heard that from anyone. Most people find it kind of
a relief, you know? I think it's hard for people to be so reverent about
stuff all the time. You know, you have to have kind of a light approach to
some things sometimes, you know. But luckily for me, black people don't watch
"The Daily Show," so I'm in the clear when it comes to that. You know? Whew!

GROSS: Do you think that's true?

Mr. WILMORE: No, of course not. You know, some people do. But not in the
same numbers. Like, I go to the same barbershop I've gone to for years, and
no one in there knows that I'm on "The Daily Show." It's hilarious, you know.
Like, I've told my barber, and he's like, `Oh, OK, what show is that? When it
is on? Whe--buh?' And I'm like, `It's "The Daily Show with Jon Stewart.'
`Who--who's this guy?' It's like, you can't win. But, you know, if you say,
`Yeah, I was on "The Steve Harvey Show."' `You was on "Steve Harvey Show"?'
You know, or something like that, you know.

GROSS: Now...

Mr. WILMORE: It's really amazing.

GROSS: How did you come up with your character? I mean, like, on "The Daily
Show," you dress in like, you know, real conservatively in a suit and tie.

Mr. WILMORE: Right.

GROSS: I know it's supposed to be a news show, but...

Mr. WILMORE: Right.

GROSS: Did you create a persona for yourself?

Mr. WILMORE: Well, not quite. There were some ideas to make me maybe a
black conservative, but I didn't want to be pigeonholed. Like, I didn't want
to just take the opposite point of view of something or that sort of thing,
and I didn't want to be a liberal or conservative and take divisive stances
that would be like what I call cheerleader comedy, you know, where you're just
cheerleading for one side or the other. So it's, `Whoo! Yeah! I agree with
you!' You know? I thought it would be more fun to be contrary, you know, and
just--you know, it's closer to my natural sense of humor, the contrariness,
you know? So whatever point you're going to take, I'm not going to take the
opposite point. I'll just be contrary to you, you know. And it's a very
frustrating point of view, because you're not sure where this person really
stands, and the ability to argue either side of the issue with as much
passion, too, can frustrate people. And I think it's a fun place to do comedy
from, and...

GROSS: Now...

Mr. WILMORE: I can both defend the N word and I can attack it at the same
time with the same amount of passion, and so you're like, `Well, where is he
coming from? Where does he stand?' You know.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Larry Wilmore, who's known on
"The Daily Show" as the senior black correspondent. He created "The Bernie
Mac Show" and wrote for "In Living Color." You may have seen him as the
diversity day training guy on the "Diversity Day" episode of "The Office."

What are some of the TV shows you grew up with?

Mr. WILMORE: Wow. Boy, I really was a kid of television. I used to have
the TV Guide memorized as a kid, you know? I could tell you what night
everything was on, you know? Some of the early shows I remember, "The Flip
Wilson Show" was one of the earliest comic influences on me. That and "Get
Smart." In fact, I just bought the DVDs to "Get Smart," and my kids watch it
all the time. One, because it was so satirical; and the other because I just
thought Flip was so funny. And it was the first time I saw, you know, a black
man with a TV show that was his own, you know? I mean, in those days, that
was unheard of. I think Diahann Carroll was the only other black person to
have her own show as the lead. And Bill Cosby was on "I Spy," but that was a
little different, you know? Here, it was Flip Wilson's show, and he was just
so funny to me. That was my first big influence.

And later on, I was influenced by a lot of things like "All in the Family,"
"Sanford and Son," you know, and stand-up comics like Steve Martin, Pryor, and
I was always a fan of the old comedy. Big, huge fan of the Marx Brothers even
to this day, and Keaton and Benny and all those people, so. But TV--I watched
everything on TV back then. I became a news junkie early on, too. My
grandmother, when she'd visit us when I was a kid, would watch the news every
night, and I would sit there--you know, you just want to spend time with your
grandmother, but I would watch the news with her. And I became a news junkie
pretty early on. Even back in those days, I can remember watching Walter
Cronkite, you know.

And then, I was very lucky to meet Walter Cronkite years later. And, as a
kid, I'd always wanted to be an astronaut, you know. And it was at the
Peabody Awards, Walter Cronkite actually gave me the Peabody and, boy, it was
a huge honor. I mean, he was such a big icon to me. And I thought, `You
know, I never thought I'd hear Walter Cronkite say my name.' You know? You
know, in my wildest dreams, it was like, `Astronaut Larry Wilmore was shot to
the moon yesterday.' You know? But, you know, if I was lucky, it was like,
`Larry Wilmore was arrested yesterday.' You know? I mean, that would be the
only way I'd hear, you know. Or maybe it'd be, `Former astronaut Larry
Wilmore was arrested yesterday.' And I actually made Walter Cronkite laugh,
and I thought, `I'm done with show biz. I made Walter Cronkite laugh.' And he
shook my hand and said, `That was really funny' and everything, and it was
great. So that was a really nice closing of that circle.

GROSS: Well, now you're a fake newsman.

Mr. WILMORE: I know. And I didn't know at the time I'd actually be on "The
Daily Show." And it's funny, because that night I was talking to Ted Koppel
and Dan Rather and, you know, these guys are huge, you know, never thinking
that one day I'd be mocking what it is that they do.

GROSS: Well, but there really is news on the show, you know?

Mr. WILMORE: Yeah. Right.

GROSS: So did being a news junkie come in handy for "The Daily Show"?

Mr. WILMORE: Absolutely. And my wife always makes fun of me--or derides may
be the better word--that I, you know, because newspaper's always on the floor
and that kind of stuff, because I read The New York Times, the LA Times,
sometimes The Wall Street Journal, you know, and I'll read a lot online, too.
And, you know, to her it's just trash, you know? `Why is it in the room?' You
know? But I just like knowing what's going on out there, and also what are
the different points of view on it, too, you know? I would always watch
different news, too, BBC News or--I love it when I'm overseas and I get to see
their local news and see what people are talking about, you know? And I just
like to know what's going on. I don't know what that is, you know?

But it definitely comes in handy, because then when you're doing "The Daily
Show," you just, at your fingertips, you have a lot of recall, you know, for
something you may have read like a week ago that was some little article about
something, you know? And you go, `Oh, you know what? There was this guy, he
said something about bah-bah-bah-bloo-bloo-bloo.' You know? `Oh, yeah, let's
look that up.' We'll look it up. `OK, you know, let's do something on that,'
you know? So it can come in handy for that.

GROSS: Larry Wilmore is "The Daily Show"'s senior black correspondent. I
spoke with him last June. Coming up, Stephen Colbert. This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Stephen Colbert, host of "The Colbert Report" and
author of "I Am America (And So Can You!)" on his book, his speech
before the president, satire, Bill O'Reilly and working nonstop
TERRY GROSS, host:

We're saluting some of America's top fake newsmen. Last week Stephen Colbert
made his third appearance on our show, the occasion being his new book, "I Am
America (And So Can You!)" Now I think he sent a secret message in the
interview. This was right after I'd asked him if he'd gone through a period
of rebellion as a young man.

Mr. STEPHEN COLBERT: I didn't really feel like I needed to rebel that much.
I had a teenage rebellion like I smoked dope and didn't do my homework, but
nothing too dramatic.

GROSS: Just think, you can't run for president or be on the Supreme Court,
having just said that.

Mr. COLBERT: Oh? Can't I? I will make sure you eat those words some day,
young lady.

(Soundbite of crunching, eating)

GROSS: Mm. Those words are crunchier than I thought they'd be. Here's what
happened a few days after my interview when Stephen Colbert stopped by "The
Daily Show."

(Soundbite of "Daily Show")

Mr. JON STEWART: Are you planning a run for president of the United States?

(Soundbite of laughter)

Mr. COLBERT: Oh, whoa, whoa! I'm glad you asked, Jon. Because tonight, I,
Stephen Colbert, am officially announcing that I have decided to officially
consider whether or not I will announce that I am running for president of the
United States. And...

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: Well, Colbert has announced his plans to run for the presidency as a
favorite son on the South Carolina ballot. Here's an excerpt of the interview
I recorded with him earlier this month about "The Colbert Report."

GROSS: How has your relationship to your alter-ego changed in the past couple
of years now that, like, you've done the show, you know, a lot? You know,
like, when you were starting...

Mr. COLBERT: Well, we...

GROSS: ...it, you had to like figure out what your character was and flesh
him out, but now you've lived that character...

Mr. COLBERT: Right, when we first started it...

GROSS: Yeah.

Mr. COLBERT: When we first started it, it was, well, I--you know, it's an
amplification of the character I did on "The Daily Show" who, even then, was,
you know, as I said, a well-intentioned, poorly informed, high-status idiot.
And then we said, `Well, let's pick some specific models,' so we picked guys
like Billy O'Reilly or Anderson Cooper for his slickness or Sean Hannity for
his just bullet-headed incuriosity. And we thought, `Well, OK, I'll be kind
of tied to these guys,' and obviously O'Reilly is the greatest. He's the king
so he's the clearest figure for any of that.

But then, as the show's progressed, we've done things like the Green Screen
Challenge or we've done trying to get a Hungarian bridge named after me, or
challenging Sean Penn to a metaphor-off, or Willie Nelson to an ice cream-off.
And those things really aren't political. They're really not--they're not
something O'Reilly would necessarily do, and so I've found that at the base of
it is still that character from "The Daily Show" who is well-intentioned,
poorly informed, high-status idiot that I can apply to other issues.

GROSS: You know, we were talking about O'Reilly and how he started off as one
of your role models for your character.

Mr. COLBERT: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: I just want to play a brief clip of when you were on O'Reilly's show
and then he was on your show.

Mr. COLBERT: Mm-hmm. I better like this clip, Terry, or I will cut off your
mike. Are you clear? This is your show but I know a lot of people in
broadcasting. All right, watch it.

GROSS: All right. So this is an excerpt of O'Reilly on "The Colbert Report"

(Soundbite "The Colbert Report")

Mr. COLBERT: Please welcome Papa Bear Bill O'Reilly! Bill!

(Soundbite of cheering and applause)

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. COLBERT: Welcome, sir.

Mr. BILL O'REILLY: Thank you.

Mr. O'REILLY: You hear that booing?

Mr. O'REILLY: No, that's not--that's not booing.

Mr. O'REILLY: No, that's just...

Mr. COLBERT: That's the bear call going, they're going `Boo, Papa Bear.'

Mr. O'REILLY: No. No. No.

Mr. COLBERT: No, that's `Ooooh, Reilly.'

Mr. O'REILLY: That's booing. That's Stewart. That's Jon Stewart in that
plaid shirt.

Mr. COLBERT: No, no. I have a restraining order against Jon Stewart.

Mr. O'REILLY: That's what he's doing.

Mr. COLBERT: He's not allowed in the building.

Mr. O'REILLY: He's jealous. He's jealous of you, Colbert.

Mr. COLBERT: The man is a sexual predator. I mean, that's why I had to
leave, Bill.

Mr. O'REILLY: Is that right? Yeah?

Mr. COLBERT: You have--you have no idea what that's like.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: I thought it was so amazing that you did that because you're saying
about he was a sexual predator, and `Bill, you have no idea what that's like,'
and of course...

Mr. COLBERT: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...everybody knew that O'Reilly had been accused of sexual harassment
at that point.

Mr. COLBERT: I don't know what you're talking about.

GROSS: Yeah. I thought that was so brave to do that. I mean, so--because
it's like taking that kind of satire to somebody's face. Was it hard to
actually do that in the room with him to his face?

Mr. COLBERT: The entire interview was hard. I was expecting him to come on
in his persona from the show.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Mr. COLBERT: But he immediately dropped it. You know, we cut out almost two
minutes of that interview because he dropped it so fully that there was
really--the game was completely gone, and I didn't want to just attack a human
being. I just wanted to have a tennis match with his public persona, and he
dropped it. So we ended up--we had like a seven and a half-minute interview,
and if you time it with a stopwatch--and I know a lot of my viewers do--that
was shorter than a normal interview on our show. I don't think he
necessarily--you'd have to ask him, but I don't think he enjoyed facing a
doppleganger.

GROSS: It must have been pretty odd for him, and he was saying to you things
like, you know, `That's just a character.' `I'm really nice.' `I'm a really
nice person.' `That's just an act.' And then you said...

Mr. COLBERT: Look, if you're an act, then what am I?

GROSS: Yeah, I thought that was such--did you--was that just like an
improvised line?

Mr. COLBERT: Well, yeah, I was just startled that he would go on air and say
that he doesn't mean the things he says. I think he was joshing to deflate a
moment, but it was surprising.

GROSS: And I just want to say, I love it when you insult NPR.

Mr. COLBERT: My pleasure.

GROSS: Or, as you describe it in the book, Nancy Pelosi Radio...

Mr. COLBERT: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...or Nazi Palestinian Radio.

Mr. COLBERT: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: And you have this great pie chart of the content of "Morning Edition."

Mr. COLBERT: Yeah, I just--my character finds it offensive that NPR doesn't
have to compete in the general marketplace with actual radio. As it says
here, "What's wrong with NPR? Just listen to `Morning Edition.' This is by
far the least zany morning zoo ever to hit the airwaves. Instead of the
get-up-and-go-larity provided by your local Scott and Tom, or Ted and Zeke, or
Denise and Santana, or Coyote Mike and the Beamer, `Morning Edition' presents
NPR's measured, barbiturate vibe." And then it has the content of Morning Zoo
and the content of "Morning Edition," two different pie charts. And then, you
know, 57 percent of a morning zoo is sound effects or prank calls. And 39
percent of "Morning Edition" is sedition, wry essays by New Englanders, and
the color light gray.

GROSS: Oh, and 15 percent glowing descriptions of fund-raising gift mug.

Mr. COLBERT: And the balance is just word jazz.

GROSS: Stephen Colbert, thank you so much. It's really been great to talk
with you.

Mr. COLBERT: Thanks for having me back.

GROSS: Stephen Colbert recorded earlier this month. His new book is called
"I Am America (And So Can You!)." This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Review: David Edelstein on "Rendition"
TERRY GROSS, host:

The new film "Rendition" takes its name from the CIA practice of transporting
terrorist suspects to secret countries that aren't bound by anti-torture laws.
It stars Jake Gyllenhaal as a CIA analyst and Reese Witherspoon as the wife of
a vanished Egyptian man. The director is Gavin Hood, whose film "Tsotsie" won
an Academy Award last year. Film critic David Edelstein has a review.

DAVID EDELSTEIN reporting:

The e-mail from New Line Cinema arrived less than an hour after the Supreme
Court handed down its decision not to hear the extraordinary rendition case of
Khalid el-Masri. `Hey,' they said, `it's just like our movie. El-Masri was a
Lebanese-born German who accused the CIA of kidnapping him his 2003 and flying
him to Afghanistan for interrogation and torture.' "Rendition" recounts the
same Kafka-esque nightmare, but as a sentimental, melodramatic cliffhanger,
with no Supreme Court to rain on the parade.

The movie centers on a clean-cut, Egyptian-born US resident, married to
Isabella, a pregnant, blond American with gumption, played by Reese
Witherspoon. Really, how can someone married to her be a terrorist? But the
CIA traces a suspicious call to his cell phone. And so, after a suicide bomb
blast in the Middle East kills an American operative, Anwar el-Ibrahimi,
played by Omar Metwaly, gets snatched at the airport. Following a relatively
civil interrogation in the US, a rendition decision comes down from the CIA's
director of indifference to life--sorry, I didn't get her exact title, but
she's impersonated by Meryl Streep, in a performance that drifts into low
camp. Anwar will be shipped to a hellhole dungeon in an unnamed country for
what you might call "the full Dante," as in ninth circle.

Now, when it comes to terrorism, context is everything. Suspects tortured on
TV's "24" have clear knowledge of missiles with nuclear warheads whizzing
toward LA at this very second. And the high-priced civil liberties lawyers
who descend on the scene within the hour have been hired by terrorists taking
cunning advantage of our Bill of Rights. On the other hand, people tortured
in lefty dramas, like "The Road to Guantanomo," were arrested by mistake and
no impoverished civil liberties lawyer can get anywhere near them for years.

"Rendition" is the Hollywood "Road to Guantanomo." We're meant to watch the
beatings, water boardings and electric shockings of the naked Anwar and feel
sick to our souls. On separate continents, Jake Gyllenhaal and Peter
Sarsgaard grapple with the issue of extraordinary rendition, which at the time
the movie's set is not well publicized. Gyllenhaal plays Douglas Freeman, a
green CIA analyst who takes over as adviser to Anwar's interrogation when a
colleague is blown up. Sarsgaard is Alan Smith, Isabella's ex-boyfriend who
works for a powerful senator played by Alan Arkin.

Here are the moral dilemmas: Will Alan convince his cautious boss to expose
the practice before Congress and the American people? Will Douglas, tortured
by conscience, do more than drink himself into a stupor at the end of the day?
Here he is with Yigal Nayor, as the torturer with no doubts.

(Soundbite of "Rendition")

Mr. YIGAL NAYOR: (as Abasi Fawal) If you don't have the stomach for this,
then you should ask to be reassigned. Douglas, I can't help you.

Mr. JAKE GYLLENHAAL: (As Douglas Freeman) We have a saying, too. You know
Shakespeare?

Mr. NAYOR: (As Abasi Fawal) Of course I know Shakespeare.

Mr. GYLLENHAAL: (As Douglas Freeman) "I fear you speak upon the rack, where
men enforced do speak anything." Sayid, in all the years you've been doing
this, how often can you say that we've produced truly legitimate intelligence?
Once? Twice? Ten times? Just give me a statistic, give me a number. Give
me--give me...(censored by station)...pie chart. I love pie charts.
Anything, anything that outweighs the fact that if you torture one person, you
create 10, 100, 1,000 new enemies.

(End of soundbite)

EDELSTEIN: Having that Shakespeare quote handy, hm. But Gyllenhaal sells it.
He's a reticent actor. He doesn't take many chances, but he builds that
limitation into the character. His immobility reeks of fear and self-disgust.
So it's a stirring moment when he leads with his outrage.

It's too bad "Rendition" is so clunky and hamhanded. Speeches like that start
to come thick and fast, and the director, Gavin Hood, never finds a rhythm for
all the cross-cutting. It's the cast that pulls you in. Witherspoon is
touching as she waddles around knocking on doors and starring down officials
with her pleading blue eyes, and Sarsgaard is remarkably believable as an
ambitious politico. Every word he utters seems calculated, the result of a
quick cost-benefit analysis, and you never know which way he'll go because his
thoughts are so shrouded.

"Rendition" isn't, in the end, about torture as much as whistle-blowing. In
its preachy but compelling way it asks whether an individual's conscience can
triumph over careerism and willed moral blindness. Even "24"'s Jack Bauer can
relate to that.

GROSS: David Edelstein is film critic for New York Magazine.

You can download podcasts of our show by going to our Web site,
freshair.npr.org.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.