'Shield' Creator Shawn Ryan

DATE April 20, 2007 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Shawn Ryan, creator of FX's "The Shield," on how he
wanted to separate himself from other cop shows; and on his actors
DAVID BIANCULLI, guest host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, TV critic for the New York Daily News
sitting in for Terry Gross.

"The Shield," starring Michael Chiklis as Detective Vic Mackey, is the series
that put the FX cable network on the map. "The Sopranos," that shot HBO to a
new level by presenting a drama series where the central character was a
cold-blooded killer. "The Shield" took the same approach, but with an even
more sinister twist. Its cold-blooded killer was a cop, not a mobster, and in
the pilot episode, he got away with murder. Murdering, in fact, one of his
own. But Shawn Ryan, creator of "The Shield," hasn't let that storyline die.
All last season and in the first episodes this year, "The Shield" has had Vic
investigated by an internal affairs officer named Kavanaugh, played by recent
Oscar winner Forrest Whitaker. Kavanaugh is sure Mackey has committed two
murders, and even though Kavanaugh is right about only one, that gives their
face to face confrontations an extra jolt. Who exactly is the good guy here?

(Soundbite of "The Shield")

Mr. MICHAEL CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) You think I'm a cop killer? Maybe I
am.

(Soundbite of traffic)

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) You're a cop, right.

Mr. FORREST WHITAKER: (as Kavanaugh) That sounded like a direct threat on my
life, Detective. You know what that means?

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) It means you just stepped onto an entirely new
playing field. For your sake, I hope you know the rules of the game.

(End of soundbite)

BIANCULLI: Today on FRESH AIR, we'll salute this long-running, still intense
drama series by visiting with Shawn Ryan, creator of "The Shield" and with
actress CCH Pounder, who plays Captain Claudette Wyms. We'll start with Shawn
Ryan.

In addition to "The Shield," Ryan is represented on TV right now by the CBS
action series "The Unit," with co-executive producer David Mamet. But years
ago Ryan wrote for a very different type of action show, "Nash Bridges," the
detective series starring Don Johnson. Terry Gross spoke to Shawn Ryan last
year, and he told her that "Nash Bridges" was more of an entertainment show
than a realistic depiction of police work.

Mr. SHAWN RYAN: That was very much a hero show. So Don Johnson's character,
Nash, you know, really couldn't screw up very badly. He always had to have
the right intentions, you know. So if something went bad, it wasn't because,
you know, any human foible of his caused it to go bad. And, you know, the
shows, you know, ended happily, the crimes were always solved, and he was a
straight-up hero. And if there was any problem with Nash, it was that he just
couldn't quite make whatever his current relationship with a beautiful woman
quite work out because he couldn't commit. That, you know, that was like the
one big "character flaw," quote/unquote.

And, you know, it was a very successful show. It ran for six years, and
that's the way that show needed to be for what it was. But, you know, there
was a hierarchy that, you know, Nash was the one that needed to solve the
crimes. He was the one that needed to swoop in at the last second. You know,
one of his underlings was never the one that, you know, was the hero of the
day and would save it. So it was those kinds of things, especially the
intentions. You know, these were cops to look up to and, you know, and they
always had everyone's--you know, they always had the innocent public's best
interests at heart. So...

TERRY GROSS, host:

OK, now you can't say that that happens in "The Shield." I mean, some of the
cops at the center of "The Shield," particularly the star of the show, the
character played by Michael Chiklis. I mean, he's not only corrupt, he's kind
of sadistic. He really enjoys violence. He's...

Mr. RYAN: He has a few flaws. You know, I wanted to write in the gray
areas. You know, I'd written a very black-and-white show for three years and
been successful doing it. And the show was successful. And it was my job to,
you know, to service my bosses in presenting them with the material that they
wanted. And I worked hard to do that. There were just a lot of sacred cows.

You know, for instance, on almost every TV cop show I'd seen in the '90s, or
in the late '80s, the heroes would be, like, the detectives and the boss, the
captain, would be a minority. And it was television's way of saying, you
know, `Well, we acknowledge that it's a multi-ethnic universe, but we're not
going to, sort of, put them forefront. And additionally, our minority captain
is going to be above reproach and, you know, isn't going to have a bad quality
at all.' I looked at Edward James Olmos' character in "Miami Vice." I looked
at James McDaniel's character in "NYPD Blue," Yaphet Kotto's character in
"Homicide." All these shows sort of had the thing, and so my first thing was,
`Well, you know what? I'm going to have a minority captain, but everyone's
going to hate him. And everyone's going to think that he's a quota baby that
got the job, you know, because of his race, not because of his talent, and not
everyone's going to look up to him.'

GROSS: You know, you're talking about trying to break the rules of some of
the shows that you really admired. Now, in shows like "Homicide" and "Law &
Order," there's some, like, fabulous interrogation scenes. And you really
admire how brilliant some of these cops are at interrogating. In the
pilot--and excuse me for going all the way back to the pilot but, you know,
although I've been watching this series for some time, I never saw the pilot
until last night on DVD. So it's really a brilliant episode. It's, like,
maybe the best pilot...

Mr. RYAN: Oh, thank you.

GROSS: ...I've ever seen. But anyways, there's three separate interrogation
scenes in that, and each of them are really different. Each of them serves a
different dramatic purpose and reveals something different about the person
doing the interrogating. Would you just talk about how you used each of those
interrogation scenes to do a whole lot of dramatic work?

Mr. RYAN: Yeah. "Homicide"--like I said, "Homicide" really was my favorite
show, and I was always impressed with their interrogation scenes, especially
the ones involving Andre Braugher's character. And really what I took from
that show was the interrogation scenes in good dramas are about the
detectives. They're not about finding out the truth of the case. They're not
about just furthering plot.

So I wanted to find out, you know, Dutch has a few scenes with this pedophile
where he just goes along and sort of shows empathy for, you know, for how you
can be attracted to young girls. And it showed this sort of gamesmanship and
mindset that he was willing to get into to break this guy. And then we had,
you know, a very sort of infamous scene with Vic Mackey and another pedophile
kidnapper near the end, and we saw just sort of how ruthless he could be. But
those scenes were designed to get into the characters of our detectives and
find out who they are, which are far more interesting interrogation scenes
than just browbeating people until they tell you that they did it.

GROSS: Well, yeah, and, you know, Dutch, the cop who's interrogating the
child molester, the first time he really gets into the guy's head, and he's
basically saying, `Say, do you believe there's a gay gene? Do you believe
that, like, people are born gay? Well, if people are born gay, maybe people
are born to be child molesters, too. I mean, I understand. I understand what
you're going through.' And that's very effective. But then he does it again
on another child molester, and the child molester's attitude is like, `Hey, I
know the game you're playing, and it's not going to work on me. I'm smart,
too.'

Mr. RYAN: Yeah. Well...

GROSS: And then the third time, like, Vic Mackey, the Michael Chiklis
character, goes in and just, like, beats the confession out of him. And the
contrast between those three interrogation scenes is so interesting
dramatically and in what they reveal about each of the characters.

Mr. RYAN: Yeah. Well, there's a time for each of them, I think. And, you
know, what I was really trying to get at is that, yes, it is tempting to
resort to brute behavior at times, and sometimes it can be even effective.
But is that what we want? And I never really try to take sides and sort of,
you know, pick a side. But I wanted, knowing that at the end of the episode,
I was going to have Vic kill Terry, it's really just completely unforgivable.

GROSS: And just to say who Terry is, for our listeners who haven't been
following the story, Terry is somebody from internal affairs who was
investigating whether these cops are on the take or not, whether they were
corrupt.

Mr. RYAN: He was on Vic's team, and was actually trying to work undercover
to take Vic and his buddies down. And what I wanted, through the other story,
through the interrogation with the pedophile, is to see how it's tempting to
give law enforcement people sort of unlimited power to do anything to solve
these heinous crimes, because there's a slippery slope at the end of it,
because when you give them power to act on your behalf, don't be surprised
when they take that power to act on their own behalf.

BIANCULLI: Shawn Ryan, creator of "The Shield," speaking to Terry Gross in
2006. The show is in its sixth season now, coming off years in which Forrest
Whitaker and Glenn Close, respectively, joined the ranks for season-long guest
appearances. Here's the interrogation scene Shawn Ryan and Terry were just
discussing. Jay Karnes plays the detective named Dutch.

(Soundbite of "The Shield")

(Soundbite of door slamming)

Mr. JAY KARNES: (as Dutch) Here's your coffee.

Unidentified Actor #1: (In character) When are you going to call about my
mom's pills?

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) I don't know. In a minute.

Actor #1: (In character) I got nothing to hide.

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) I know. Hey, tell me something. Do you think
there's something wrong with gay people?

Actor #1: (In character) Something wrong?

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) In the head, you know. With queers, I mean, you
think they got a screw loose?

Actor #1: (In character) I don't know.

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) Not so long ago medical community classified
homosexuality as a disorder, called it an illness.

Actor #1: (In character) Yeah?

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) Now scientists think maybe something genetic makes
people gay.

Actor #1: (In character) So...

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) For booking. So if God made them that way, who are
we to say they're wrong for doing the things they do? And it got me be
thinking, what if scientists discover there's a gene that predisposes some
people to be attracted to young girls.

Actor #1: (In character) You think there is, in some people?

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) Well, why not? And if scientists discover that gene,
then, well, and then maybe people won't think it's so wrong to have sex with
underage girls.

Actor #1: (In character) Maybe not.

(Soundbite of Dutch snapping his fingers)

Mr. KARNES: (as Dutch) Forgot to call about your mom's pills.

(End of soundbite)

GROSS: When the pilot was accepted by FX, this was before "Nip/Tuck," it was
before Dennis Leary's series was on the air.

Mr. RYAN: "Rescue Me."

GROSS: "Rescue Me." And people weren't thinking, `Oh, FX, that's the real,
like, happening network now for new shows.' So was it hard to convince actors
that it was a good idea for them to get started in an FX series?

Mr. RYAN: Oh, absolutely. I can't--you know, there were actors that I had
never heard of who refused to come in and read for the role of Vic Mackey. In
all seriousness. And I was like--or it was an offer only. `If you want to
offer me the role, maybe I'll consider doing it.' And I'm like, `Well, who is
this person again? Have I even seen him in anything?' I mean, who--and I know
for a fact that there were agents who were steering actors away from doing
this. I know that that there was an actor that we were seriously considering
for the character of Shane who I know through back channel says that his agent
essentially convinced him, you know it's not worth doing this show on this
network. And so that person never sort of came in for final consideration,
you know, for the role. It was difficult.

But in the end, it turned out to be a blessing because what happened was that
we only got people on the show who desperately wanted to do the show. And
there was an excitement and energy that I think really translated to the
screen because of that.

BIANCULLI: Shawn Ryan, speaking with Terry Gross last year. His series "The
Shield" is now in its sixth season on the F/X cable network.

Coming up, one of the stars of that show, CCH Pounder. This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: CCH Pounder, Captain Claudette Wyms on "The Shield,"
on her character, accent and background
DAVID BIANCULLI, guest host:

The character of Claudette Wyms began on "The Shield" as a detective, just one
of many working in the squadroom at one of the bullpen desks. But after many
long years and frustrating delays, she's finally been promoted to captain, a
testament not only to her talents but to those of the actress playing her, CCH
Pounder. Terry spoke with Pounder last year. Both the character and the
actress make quite an impact in this scene, in which Wyms is interrogating a
suspect with a horrible scar on his face. She doesn't know that the person
who gave him the scar is Detective Vic Mackey.

(Soundbite of "The Shield")

Ms. CCH POUNDER: (As Claudette Wyms) You've got a lot on your plate.
Where'd you find the time? Drug trafficking, consolidating a Mexican power
base, murder. Am I leaving anything out? Oh, yeah. Juvenile rape.

Unidentified Actor #2: (In character) So you say.

Ms. POUNDER: (As Claudette Wyms) Let's hope that genius IQ means you know
how to help yourself. We've got you on tape making a death threat.

Actor #2: (In character) That could be anyone's voice. I'll challenge it in
court.

Ms. POUNDER: (As Claudette Wyms) What about the testimony of a cop with his
own grill mark. You going to challenge that too? What happened to your face?
You used to be so pretty.

Actor #2: (In character) I'll only give my confession to Detective Mackey.

Ms. POUNDER: (As Claudette Wyms) You don't make demands, not to me.

(End of soundbite)

TERRY GROSS, host:

Now, for anyone listening to you who's a fan of "The Shield," they'll be able
to hear that your accent, as you're speaking to us now, is a little different
than how Claudette sounds.

Ms. POUNDER: Right. Right.

GROSS: What's the difference?

Ms. POUNDER: I'm from British Guiana, which is now Guyana. I grew up in
England, and I came here as an adult. I spent seven years working on American
accents, and then Peggy Rogers, who is, by the way, from Philadelphia, was one
of my friends in college. And I said to her, `Peggy, I need to speak the way
you speak,' and that's how we started. And basically for the first three
years of my friendship with Peggy, I stole her voice and would use it for
auditions and so on. And then as the years have gone by, it's sort of become
that sort of mid-Atlantic, in the middle accent that I do use for work,
because a black British actress, when I arrived here, didn't have that much to
do except go to auditions and people have you called--always have callbacks
and kind of go, `Listen to this one talk,' and I always thought that was the
oddest thing. But now, you know, years have gone by, and we're much more
international and aware of the rest of the world.

GROSS: So would you show up at the audition speaking to the casting director
in your more mid-Atlantic voice so that they wouldn't be prejudiced against
your British accent?

Ms. POUNDER: Oh, absolutely. Absolutely. Because, unfortunately, there's a
lot of things in America that sort of go with black. I mean, I've actually
been told by directors, Could I be more black? And I would say sort of,
`Well, just look at me and tell me what exactly do you want, because I can't
get much blacker than I physically am, but what attitude would you like?' So
it's forced them to describe human feelings in a much higher range than
usually when I'm around.

You know, it's been really fascinating because--this is a kind of sidebar,
Terry--the thing about being black and having a different accent in the
beginning is that it makes you foreign, and then it does not make you, how can
I use this word? I'll say it, and then you edit it some other way, a
`nigger,' and so that, with your accent, you are somewhat protected always by
being foreign. But I wanted to be an American actress. Coming from England,
I knew that that was where the real stories would be, and it would take
England much, much longer to come up with these stories. They're just getting
their feet wet now, and this is 25 years ago. And I subjected myself to that
feeling so that when people talk to you and you receive those insults and
barbs, and I replied just the way with my same neck jerk and I gave them what
for, and you kind of become a part of society. It's part of the whole
assimilation system, really, and the moment that you're not foreign, then you
get hurts and pains and pangs that--you are no longer protected by your
foreignness which people, regardless of your color, always give you the
opportunity of giving you--graciousness, politeness. They give you the excuse
of, `Well, they're not from here so they really would not understand.'

GROSS: So...

Ms. POUNDER: Does that make sense to you?

GROSS: Yeah, and I want to ask you about that in a second. But first, I
wanted to ask you, you used what we often call `the N word.' Do you want us to
use that word or did you want us to edit it out?

Ms. POUNDER: I couldn't find another word that--that really is, that's the
word.

GROSS: That's the word. Mm-hmm.

Ms. POUNDER: That's the word. I had never been called it until I got an
American accent. That's really important. Do you understand what I'm saying?

GROSS: That's really interesting. I think that's really, really interesting.

Ms. POUNDER: Yes.

GROSS: So tell me more what you think that says about people's assumptions
about African-Americans and black people from other countries?

Ms. POUNDER: It is with the same wonderfulness that French people treat
African-Americans and then the disdain that they treat African.

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Ms. POUNDER: It is with the same difference that the British treat
African-Americans compared to how they treat West Indians, part of their
colonies, and therefore, America does the same with African-Americans because
we African-Americans here are their colonized people of--who are the
underbelly people, the lower strata people. So I hope that's really, really
clear. I really want it to be clear.

BIANCULLI: CCH Pounder, speaking with Terry Gross last year. We'll have more
of their conversation in the second half of the show. I'm David Bianculli and
this is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli.

We're continuing our salute to the FX series "The Shield," which is now in its
sixth season. Let's get back to Terry's interview with CCH Pounder, who plays
Claudette Wyms. This season Claudette finally has been promoted to captain,
and Detective Vic Mackey, played by Michael Chiklis, is being pressured into a
forced retirement. In this scene from the season opener, Wyms is giving
Mackey the bad news, or trying to

(Soundbite of "The Shield")

Ms. POUNDER: (as Claudette Wyms) This came directly from the chief's office.

(Soundbite of closing door)

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) Says he wants my retirement, effective
immediately.

Ms. POUNDER: (as Claudette Wyms): If you take it now, the chief will see
you'll get a piece of your pension.

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) Why now? I had until my 15 mark.

Ms. POUNDER: (as Claudette Wyms): Certain things are in motion. This is a
lifeline. Sign this and it will save us all a lot of grief. If you don't...

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) You can't cut me loose.

Ms. POUNDER: (as Claudette Wyms): It's not my idea.

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) Brass is going to be watching every move you
make. You need me to make this place work.

Ms. POUNDER: (as Claudette Wyms): I need people I can trust.

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) So you won't help me fight this?

Ms. POUNDER: (as Claudette Wyms): You know a reason I should?

(Soundbite of knock on door)

(Soundbite of door opening)

Unidentified Actor: (In character) Quinn showed up at another clinic.
(Unintelligible)...spooked him. He's got hostages.

Mr. CHIKLIS: (as Vic Mackey) Who you going to trust with that?

(End of soundbite)

BIANCULLI: In earlier seasons of "The Shield" it appeared that Claudette
might be promoted to captain, but again and again she was passed over, which
angered not only Wyms, but many viewers as well.

Ms. POUNDER: I was trying to be captain for quite a while, this character,
and when I didn't get it the first time and Glenn Close's character got it, I
tell you, the news, the letters, the e-mails were amazing. I had no idea that
it would have such an impact, but it went to the bottom line of American
racism and...

GROSS: Really, like they gave it to a white actress...

Ms. POUNDER: ...people perceived themselves...

GROSS: ...that kind of thing?

Ms. POUNDER: Absolutely.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Ms. POUNDER: And oh, I couldn't believe it and, you know, you really forget
that out in the world there, somehow it translates to a sort of a real place
for many, many people. So that was about being shoved aside, just like it is
in the real world, and people were quite angry and very pissed off. And so
they have been sending letters going, `If they don't give you that job, I'm
going to...' `If they don't do that'--and they were very clear. I'm leaving
the blanks out.

GROSS: Right.

Ms. POUNDER: But they were very clear about how they felt.

GROSS: Just for our listeners who--for any listeners who haven't been
following "The Shield," Glenn Close was the guest star for a whole season, and
when you were passed over for captain, she became the captain.

Ms. POUNDER: Right.

GROSS: So now, your character and your character's fans were resentful that
she was passed over and Glenn Close got the job as captain. Were you, as an
actress, resentful? Did you expect that your character was going to make
captain, and were you sorry that Glenn Close came in and took the position?

Ms. POUNDER: Oh no, far from it. As a matter of fact, our writers are--must
find me to be probably the most unusual actress that they've dealt with,
because I think many of us want to be in a position that reflects real life,
like upward mobility, they're the center of attention. And it's not
necessarily my interest as an actor. My fascination is, how do human beings
get themselves out of this particular corner of a box? And usually they would
call an actress in and say, `OK, we're going to do this this season,' and I
usually say, `I don't want to know about it. Just write the script, and I'll
figure it out.' And that's very tough for a lot of other actors to believe
and/or take.

GROSS: Now, in addition to your regular part on "The Shield," you've done a
lot of the crime shows. You've done "Law & Order" and "Cagney and Lacey " and
"Hill Street Blues," and--I mean, so have you done a lot of victims and, you
know, perps on those shows?

Ms. POUNDER: In the beginning, I did. In the beginning, I was the sniveling
wife with the crying baby, selling crack for medication for her children or
being accosted by her husband, abused by her husband. I spent a couple of
years literally just crying on cue, and I think it was actually "Miami Vice."
"Miami Vice" I played a mother on crack who sold her child for crack cocaine,
and at the end of it--I had a marvelous time, by the way, in terms of acting,
I had a great time--and at the end of it I looked back and I went, `I never
want to do this again,' because I had, by this time, discovered how powerful
television really, really is. Television is this incredibly powerful medium
that people blur the lines between reality and fiction and take it as gospel.
So I decided that after that I'm going to play some women of worth, of
character, of strength, of authority, educated. Because the people who are
watching me needed to see something that was far more uplifting than what I
had been doing.

GROSS: So what did you do, like, sit home and wait for people to offer you
uplifting roles?

Ms. POUNDER: I did, and I starved for about a year and a half. And I
remember distinctly calling my agent and saying, `OK, well, I'm really sort of
six cents in the cookie jar now, so whatever comes next, I'm going to have to
take it.' And it was a script for--not "Law & Order," "Hill"--"LA Law," the
very first one, "LA Law." And I got the entire script, and there was a
miserable little person that I was meant to read for, and then there was the
character of the judge, and I said, `I want to read for the judge,' and I was
told that no black woman had read for the judge yet, and they didn't think
they would let you in to do it. And I insisted, and my agents backed me up,
and I went and read for the judge, and they were all like, `Oh, wow, I guess,
yeah, she could be a judge. She could be a judge. There are black judges,
aren't there?' That was one of the quotes I heard in the room. `There are
black judges, aren't there? I mean, that are women.' And somebody said, `I'll
look it up,' I remember, a young kid. And I got that job.

GROSS: Well, you know, since we were talking about different accents before
and different voice placements, I'm wondering if, like, in your years as a
victim, on TV shows...

Ms. POUNDER: Mm-hm.

GROSS: ...on crime shows, was there a certain kind of voice that you would
use for that?

Ms. POUNDER: Well, it was up, kind of voice high and whiny and then, `I'm
not quite sure where she went, but she was over there and I had the children
down. They were like down two stairs, and well, I just don't know where they
are right now, but--' It was kind of like that. An endless parade of that, so
you know, after a while, you get really nasally.

GROSS: And why that voice? What matches about that voice with the kind of
victim that you had to play?

Ms. POUNDER: For some reason, high seems, I guess, in the minds of people,
female, therefore vulnerable, therefore less than, you know--somebody who
needs aid, come to one's rescue. It's really true.

GROSS: Now, in your role on "The Shield," you use a very deep version of your
voice.

Ms. POUNDER: Right. I like the professionalism of that. I like the fact
that...

GROSS: Oh, it's power. Isn't it?

Ms. POUNDER: Yes. Yes. It is. It is a maleness that I don't have
physically, but I try to ground the--that maleness, that boys' club in the
sound of her voice. And by doing so, she gets almost instant authority. And
I'm always trying to lose weight, and they're always happy when I'm heftier.
And so it's sort of that sort of hefty look with the deep voice and piercing
eyes is like, `Yes! That's Claudette Wyms.' But you know, it's part of human
nature that we certainly recognize signage, and that really is signage.

BIANCULLI: CCH Pounder, speaking to Terry Gross last year. More after a
break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

BIANCULLI: Let's get back to Terry's 2006 interview with CCH Pounder. She
plays Claudette Wyms, a long-time detective and recently promoted captain on
the FX series "The Shield."

GROSS: You know, it's interesting. You spend a lot of time in Africa, too,
because your husband's from Senegal...

Ms. POUNDER: I do. Right.

GROSS: ...and runs a museum there, so you're in Senegal a good deal of the
time. So you're also a black person in Africa...

Ms. POUNDER: Right.

GROSS: ...and how does--what are the some of the assumptions you've run into
there?

Ms. POUNDER: Well, in Africa I would be called a "tubab," which means white
for some people, but really it means foreign, and so it's the same. I'm very
well treated in Africa, because there's the assumption that I'm also
exceedingly rich, and I have the status--the first foreigners that came were
white, maybe Portuguese, and they had the--you know, the white people were the
tubabs, so--I've heard them call me `No, no, no, no, no. Not that lady, the
tubab lady.' And they know exactly who I would be.

GROSS: Do they think that you're rich because you're foreign or because you
work on television?

Ms. POUNDER: Well, they haven't seen me--oh yes, they have seen me on
television now. But in the beginning, no, because you're from outside, just
really means, you know, coming from another place.

GROSS: Now, does being an actress, and a successful one, and being on a
series like "The Shield" get you a ticket out of all of those assumptions
about how race or a country define you?

Ms. POUNDER: Oh, yes, sometimes, because that makes you different. You
know, you're more iconic so it can be--you can be in the presence of, say,
white people--you're in the presence of white people. They're talking about
black people negatively. They see you, but they don't mean you. You're
different, so you become iconic, and that's very common. I know many, many
people are very aware of that.

GROSS: So have you used different versions of your accent and different
versions of American regional accents in your roles in television knowing some
of the implications that accents have in terms of the assumptions people make
about others?

Ms. POUNDER: All the time, and everyone does it all the time. It's just the
difference between, like, you can speak scatologically around--amongst your
friends so they understand what you mean.

GROSS: Mm-hm.

Ms. POUNDER: You speak better towards your parents. You speak in a very
formal way towards people that you've never met before. And so imagine,
Terry, that I am from a very interracial family in terms of where we grew up,
so I was born in Guyana, which has a kind of accent like that. And everybody
speaks a little bit on the high side and, `Good morning, girl. It's so nice
to see you.' That's where I started. And then you ended up in England, so you
have--I did speak the Queen's English, and it was in a boarding school, so
it's very, very proper. And then you got to America, but you didn't land in,
say, Maryland, you landed in Brooklyn, so I've got an edge as well, so while
I'm speaking at my dinner table, you can hear all of those accents all within
one conversation. It just sounds like the Tower of Babel, but we all seem to
manage and get along.

GROSS: Now, you grew up in British Guiana, and I know you must be asked all
the time the question I'm about to ask you, which is did you know anybody who
was involved in any way with Jim Jones' cult group in Jonestown? Now, that
might have been French Guiana and not British Guiana.

Ms. POUNDER: No, no. It was in British Guiana.

GROSS: It was in British Guiana?

Ms. POUNDER: Yeah. It was in British Guiana. And no, I didn't know. In
fact, not many Guyanese people knew about Jim Jones until after the fact,
until the airport incident, until it was literally all over, because the
people were from the United States. And I don't know if you know the back
history. This was when Guyana was opening up its land for development and was
offering land, you know, for peoples from all over the world to come there and
develop the land, and they would get sort of 70 percent and the government
would get 30. So Jim Jones' group were the first Americans that came and
created that extraordinary tragedy. And very few Guyanese people know about
them because they were in the interior and, as you may or may not know, Guyana
is mostly occupied right at the water's edge in Georgetown. That's a majority
of the people. We don't even have a million people in Guyana. It's a small,
small...

GROSS: Mm-hmm.

Ms. POUNDER: ...population, and a really primordial kind of country. It's
the real deal jungle. It's the orchids hanging from the branches. It's
anaconda and all manner of strange looking creatures and bright yellow frogs
and just an exquisite place, but that kind of raw, scary beauty that you
expect King Kong to come swinging around the corner. And so peoples have
hugged mostly to the edges, which is Georgetown, the biggest--the capital, the
biggest city, and that's right on the coast. And there are few interior
towns, New Amsterdam and Bartica.

GROSS: Mm.

Ms. POUNDER: But where Jim Jones was, not a lot of people knew them.

GROSS: So how much contact did you have with the jungle?

Ms. POUNDER: As I was growing up as a kid, none whatsoever because I was on
a sugar cane estate or plantation, and that was a clear jungle. That was
miles and miles of sugar cane and canals, lots of water everywhere.

GROSS: Did your family own the plantation or work on the plantation?

Ms. POUNDER: My father was the first African to--he was the second in
command at Versailles Estate.

GROSS: Now, I also read that your parents didn't really want you to be an
actress. They didn't have a lot of respect for the profession.

Ms. POUNDER: Right. My parents are sort of staunch West Indians. They love
a work ethic. They believe in doctors, lawyers, something concrete, something
that does something for the world. And acting was sort of like, you know,
closer to the first oldest profession, as far as they were concerned. They
thought this was a waste of an education and somewhat sleazy...

GROSS: And obviously you disagree.

Ms. POUNDER: ...to put it nicely. I did disagree, but it--I'm telling you,
it took me a very, very long time to say out loud, `I am an actress' or `I'm
an actor.' It took me a long time. If I was working as a secretary, I'd be
proud to say `I'm a secretary,' you know. `I'm working at an insurance
company.' And I did tons of temporary jobs, as all actors do. And even when I
went to college, I did not go directly to the drama department, I went to the
French and English department and thought I would major in English and then
minor in drama. And it took a while to say out loud, `I'm an actor,' and then
I had to do it. I was running out of time and excuses.

GROSS: You know what I think is funny? Like, your parents are thinking it's
a sleazy profession, it's not respectable. And you think, no, it's a fine
profession, and then you end up having to play women who are selling their
babies for crack.

Ms. POUNDER: Exactly. Yeah, exactly. But I'm proud to be able to say now
that every profession that my mother ever wanted me to do, I've done it--in
acting.

GROSS: I have one more question for you. Remember earlier we were talking
about--we were talking about how, being from Guyana, you had, you know, a
British accent, and wherever you went in the world, people would evaluate you
based on your accent. And in America...

Ms. POUNDER: Right.

GROSS: ...people would treat you probably better than they would treat
African-Americans because you were an outsider...

Ms. POUNDER: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: ...and everybody has the people who they've kind of like colonialized
and look down on.

Ms. POUNDER: True.

GROSS: What was it like growing up black in Guiana?

Ms. POUNDER: Well, we were the big cheese there. That was never knowing
what racism's about in Guiana. It's all about poverty. It's all about haves
and have-nots, and it's very, very different. It's not about the color of
your skin, because everybody's skin is black. The Indians--they're East
Indians--they're the majority of the population. They're black, also. The
whites are so burnt and crispified they look like black people there, too, so
there it's a sort of--everybody's basically brown in Guyana, and the
differences--there are many cultural differences--there's East Indian, there's
Hindu, there's Muslim, there's Christian, there is native Indian. So there's
all of that mix, but poverty's a great equalizer, and so that there are more
people equal there than there nonequal. And it's really about the haves and
the have-nots, and in Guiana, I was a have.

BIANCULLI: CCH Pounder, speaking to Terry Gross in 2006. She plays Captain
Claudette Wyms in "The Shield," now in its sixth season on the FX cable
network.

Coming up, film critic David Edelstein reviews "Hot Fuzz." This is FRESH AIR.

(Announcements)

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Review: David Edelstein reviews the film "Hot Fuzz"
DAVID BIANCULLI, host:

Director Edgar Wright and actor and writer Simon Pegg came to prominence in
England for their TV sitcom "Spaced." Together they wrote the zombie comedy of
manners "Shaun of the Dead," starring Peg and directed by Wright. Their new
film "Hot Fuzz" is set in a bucolic English village where things just aren't
the way they seem. Film critic David Edelstein has a review.

DAVID EDELSTEIN reporting:

The English have a wellspring of humor that can never be exhausted. It's the
combination of bestial urges and good manners. The Ealing black comedies with
Alec Guinness dramatize the schism lovingly. The Monty Python lads devised
more raucous sketches, implying the problem was mental defectiveness born of
inbreeding, and in movies like "Monty Python and the Holy Grail," they blended
English deadpan with the lopping off of limbs.

In 2004, the team of Edgar Wright and actor Simon Pegg took the lunatic
disjunction to the next level. In "Shaun of the Dead," they fused middle
class English suburban angst and zombie carnage. Some critics dubbed the film
a spoof of horror movies, which didn't do it justice. Wright and Pegg aimed
higher, using zombies to spoof the English capacity for blotting out the
bloody obvious. I especially relish the hero's meek mother, who neglects to
tell her son about her bite from a contagious ghoul until she's about to
transform into a ferocious zombie cannibal. She says, `I didn't want to be a
bother.'

Now Wright and Pegg have collaborated on "Hot Fuzz," which is nearly as good
as "Shaun of the Dead" and is probably more accessible to people who don't,
like me, see every zombie cannibal flick as a matter of course. Here the joke
is that a quaint old English hamlet with a clucking flower shop lady, a hearty
vicar and all sorts of elderly busybodies is the setting for a splattery,
over-the-top, overbudgeted Hollywood buddy action picture. The hero, once
again played by Simon Pegg, is Angel, a humorless by-the-book city cop, who's
bounced out of London for making too many arrests and making the rest of the
force look bad. He ends up in tiny Sanford, a finalist for the title of
England's Most Picturesque Village, where he's forced to sit with the pudgy
constable, Danny Butterman, played by Pegg's frequent collaborator Nick Frost,
clocking passing automobiles and waiting for speeders.

(Soundbite of "Hot Fuzz")

(Soundbite of car engines)

(Soundbite of music)

Mr. SIMON PEGG: (as Angel) Twenty-seven.

Mr. NICK FROST (as Danny Butterman) have you ever seen "Point Break"?

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel) No.

Mr. FROST: (as Danny Butterman) Amazing bit in "Point Break" where they jump
over fences.

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel) Two-zero-nine. Twenty-nine.

Mr. FROST: (as Danny Butterman) Patrick Swayze's just robbed this bank.
Keanu Reeves is chasing him through people's gardens, and he goes to shoot
Swayze but he can't because he loves him so much and he's firing his gun up in
the air, and he's like, `Argh!'

(Soundbite of beeping)

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel): (Unintelligible).

Mr. FROST: (as Danny Butterman) Have you ever found up in the air and gone,
`Argh'?

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel): No, I have not ever fired my gun up in the air and
gone, `Argh!'

(Soundbite of beeping)

(Soundbite of car passing)

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel): Three.

Mr. FROST: (as Danny Butterman) Sorry, I'm just I feel like I'm missing out
sometimes. I want to do what you do.

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel): You do do what I do. What on earth do you think
you're missing out on?

Mr. FROST: (as Danny Butterman) Gunfights, car chases, proper action...

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel): Police work is not about proper action. Twenty-nine.
If you've have paid attention to me in school you'd understand that it's not
all about gunfights and car chases.

(Soundbite of car passing)

(Soundbite of beeping and siren)

Mr. PEGG: (as Angel): Fire up the roof.

(Soundbite of siren)

(Soundbite of car racing)

(Soundbite of car braking)

Mr. FROST: (as Danny Butterman) That was brilliant.

(End of soundbite)

EDELSTEIN: It's rather sweet how Danny dreams of being like Keanu Reeves in
"Point Break," yet seems blind to the conspiracy breaking under his nose,
manifest in a series of really gross beheadings, squashings and impalings that
his doddering police chief dad, played by Jim Broadbent, shrugs off as
accidents. But Angel, he doesn't buy the accident theory. No. Something
about this town is too pretty, too polite, too orderly.

"Hot Fuzz" is great fun, and it's nice to see all the old English character
actors who aren't busy in "Harry Potter" films, like Broadbent, Billie
Whitelaw, Anne Reid and Edward Woodward. One-time James Bond Timothy Dalton
is splendidly unctuous as a local grocery store magnate, and there are lots of
surprise cameos. Better than that, it's not just a string of gags. If "Shaun
of the Dead" was, at heart, the archetypal story of a child-man who finally
has the courage to grow up, to take responsibility for his life, commit to a
woman, and make peace at last with his mother--whose head he also has to blow
off with a shotgun--"Hot Fuzz" is a story of small-town English repression and
the tradition of heroic American individualism that lays waste to it.

The climax is everything you could hope for. As in "Shaun of the Dead," the
mayhem is shockingly graphic, which helps to keep the slapstick from getting
too campy-comfy. It lampoons the ultimate overblown Jerry Bruckheimer
artillery picture "Bad Bays II" while still delivering the goods: a
brilliantly edited battle in which tweedy pensioners wield massive artillery
and the whole town explodes. Well, not the actual town, in point of fact, but
a small scaled-down developer's model of the town, the kind where the
buildings come up to your waist. That's the beauty of Wright and Pegg's
aesthetic. The scale of their enterprises is funhouse absurd. But you
recognize the terrain. As The New Yorker used to put it, "There'll always be
an England."

BIANCULLI: David Edelstein is film critic for New York Magazine.

(Credits)

BIANCULLI: For Terry Gross, I'm David Bianculli
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