Sean Penn Discusses "The Thin Red Line" and "Hurly Burly."

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 19, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 011901np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Ray Price
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

When Ray Price was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame in 1996 he was described by Kris Kristofferson as a living link from Hank Williams to the country music of today. Price was Hank Williams' protege and roommate in the early '50s after Price moved to Nashville.

Soon after, Price helped give several country performers their starts. Early in their careers; Willie Nelson, Roger Miller, Johnny Paycheck, and Johnny Bush played in Price's band The Cherokee Cowboys. Price was born in Cherokee County Texas in 1926.

His country hits have included "Crazy Arms," "Release Me," "Heartaches by the Number," and "For the Good Times." In a "Washington Post" review of a concert last year, Price was praised for singing ballads with a quiet soulfulness that now sounds refreshingly old fashioned.

You can hear that for yourself on his forthcoming CD. From it, this is "Rambling Rose."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- COUNTRY MUSIC SINGER RAY PRICE PERFORMING "RAMBLING ROSE")

Rambling rose
Rambling rose
Why you ramble
No one knows

Wild and wind blown
That's how you've grown
Who can cling to
A rambling rose

Ramble on
Ramble on
When you're rambling
Days are gone

Who will love you
With a love true
When you're rambling
Days are gone

Rambling rose

GROSS: That's Ray Price from his new CD. Ray Price, welcome to FRESH AIR.

I'm really anxious to hear why you decided to record "Rambling Rose," and I'll preface my question by saying that, you know, I know Nat King Cole's recording. And although I love Nat Cole, that's one recording I never loved. Yet I really love the way you do the song. So, what did you hear in the song?

RAY PRICE, COUNTRY MUSIC SINGER: Well, it's just a great song really. It's kind of like a young girl that might be heading in the wrong direction, I think. And that's the way I look at it. I'm trying to make it sound as real as I can.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm. Let's talk a little bit about your past. I know you grew up in Texas. Where did you grow up, and what was that community like?

PRICE: Well, I was -- I came from northeast Texas, which was then Wood County and Upshire County. It's a rural area, and my family -- we're all farmers on both sides. And then my mother and dad moved to Dallas, and of course I went to Dallas with them.

And I was raised in Dallas -- went to college in Arlington, Texas. But I'm back in east Texas now, living. So it's a pretty part of the state.

GROSS: One of the people who helped you a lot early in your career was Hank Williams, the great country singer. How did you meet him?

PRICE: Well, the music publisher in Nashville who got me a contract with Columbia Records, got me on one of Hank's radio shows. Every Friday night in Nashville they would -- if the stars were in town they would be on their own radio shows at WSM in Nashville.

And I was a guest of the music publisher -- Troy Martin had gotten me a spot on his show. And we became real close friends, and he got me on the Grand Ol' Opry. And he and his wife were getting divorced...

GROSS: ...Hank Williams got you on the Grand Ol' Opry.

PRICE: Yes.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

PRICE: Then we lived together. We had a house there in Nashville, and I would stay -- I had the upstairs. He had the house for about a year and then of course he passed away.

GROSS: You're saying that you started living together after he and his wife separated?

PRICE: Oh, yeah. He had to have somebody. He had a problem with alcohol, and we were real close. I had to take care of him. Everything was fine.

GROSS: What would you do for him?

PRICE: Oh, just whatever needed to be done. I might go to the store and things like that.

GROSS: Would you try to keep him from alcohol or keep him comfortable with it?

PRICE: Yeah, you just don't -- oh, no, I wouldn't give him anything. No way. But, you know, like any of your friends if they got into it too far you would try to help them if they were ill.

GROSS: Now, I read someplace, and you can tell me if this is true because there are so many legends surrounding famous people, but I read that Hank Williams tried to shoot you a couple of times. That he shot at you a couple of times.

PRICE: No, honey, that is a real big fabrication. Real big. No way.

GROSS: OK.

PRICE: What I -- it had to come from somebody that may have been a little envious back there somewhere.

GROSS: Right.

PRICE: It really didn't happen. The reason why Hank and I stopped living together right at the last was the fact that he was in the hospital so many times and having so much trouble. And one of the times I was ordered by the man Jim Denny, who ran the Artist Service Bureau in Nashville and handled Hank, to take him to the hospital. And Hank got a little ill at me for that, and so I moved. But we never lost the friendship we had.

GROSS: Did he help you get on the Grand Ol' Opry the first time?

PRICE: Sure did.

GROSS: What did he do to get you on there? Were you performing in his act or opening for him?

PRICE: No, it was -- one Saturday night Red Foley, who was one of the big stars and the star of the Prince Albert, which was the network show, wife had died and Hank had took the host position on the show and he wanted me for his guest.

And you didn't get on the Grand Ol' Opry back then without a hit record. And I was years away from a hit record. So he got me on, and they sent me to take care of him on a trip one time and everything worked out all right so they signed me to a contract.

GROSS: What do you mean they sent you to take care of him on a trip? They knew that he was having problems and he needed kind of like a guardian?

PRICE: Yeah, and he needed somebody to get up there and sing in case he didn't make it. And that was hard to do. That happened to me in Norfolk on New Year's Day, and I didn't know what to do because they come running in and said, well, you're going to have to take Hank's place. And here I was, nobody knew who I was.

And I said, well, there's no way I can do that. Anyway, they put me out there with Hank's band and we made it all right. And people kind of liked me because I had made a mistake by naming one of the songs in a higher key than I ought to have been. And I let them know about it, so it turned kind of amusing for a while. From then on Norfolk was one of the best towns for me.

GROSS: How would you explain it to the audience that Hank Williams couldn't make it?

PRICE: Well, you let the promoter do that. And there were other stars on the show; Johnny Jack, Kenny Wells. We were all trying to cover up the fact, because it was 10 or 12,000 people there, and the promoter went out -- I forget what he said -- that Hank was ill or something.

But some of the times Hank wouldn't even be drinking and the promoters would get him to drink and so they didn't have to pay him.

GROSS: You're kidding.

PRICE: No, I'm not kidding, honey.

GROSS: So this way they'd get all the ticket sales but they wouldn't have to pay him.

PRICE: Well, they wouldn't have to pay him because he breached his contract. He'd come in there, got drunk, didn't do a good show. They would put him on the stage while he was inebriated -- nobody can get onstage and sing drunk.

GROSS: Uh-huh. But in the meanwhile the promoter would have had maybe a full house and made all the money on ticket sales.

PRICE: Well, about $50 or 60 thousand, put it in his pocket and go home.

GROSS: Let's pause here for some music and hear one of your early hits. In fact, this was your first number one recording. It's called "Crazy Arms." It was recorded in 1956. Do you want to say anything about the recording before we hear it?

PRICE: Well, it was in 1956 and the -- Bob Martin, a disc jockey in Tampa, Florida had found a record of "Crazy Arms" and it wasn't a very good record. But he was intrigued by the song and played it for me, and I was too. And then when I recorded it it became a monster. It was my first million seller, and it crossed over. And at that time they didn't know what a crossover was. So -- but it was the first big one I had, you're right.

GROSS: Let's hear it. This is my guest Ray Price recorded in 1956.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- COUNTRY MUSIC SINGER RAY PRICE PERFORMING "CRAZY ARMS")

Now blue ain't the word
For the way that I feel
And the songs doing this part of mine
They're saying those crazy dreams

I know that it's real
They're someone else's love now
You're not mine
Crazy arms that reach to hold somebody new

While my yearning heart did say
You're not mine
My trouble
(Unintelligible)

And that's why I'm lonely all the time.

GROSS: That's Ray Price recorded in 1956. By the way, he has a new CD coming out in January. What was the impact of having a number one hit?

PRICE: Well, I got to eat pretty regular.

GROSS: Were you having trouble doing that before?

PRICE: Oh, yeah. All young ones have trouble. In fact, Lefty Frizzell and I started out together. And we used to split a bowl of stew in Dallas when we were first starting, but everything got better like it always does. And I don't know, that's about all I can say. It gave me an opportunity to do things that I hadn't been able to do up to that point.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm. My guest is Ray Price. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: My guest is country singer Ray Price.

Now, I believe after Hank Williams died you used his band for a while.

PRICE: I used his band for about two years, and there's two or three of them that have passed on now, but the rest we're all dear friends. But I got to sounding too much like Hank on records.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

PRICE: It was because the music was so locked in it had to sound like Hank. I mean, we had to break up. And we broke up in Grand Junction, Colorado if I remember correctly.

GROSS: Did you feel that your singing style changed when you got your own band?

PRICE: Oh, yeah. Absolutely.

GROSS: How did it change?

PRICE: Well, I went back to singing Texas style. And not the way Hank and the band played. He had no drums or anything like that. And of course I brought a Texas swing band to Nashville to go to work with me. And from then on that's the way it was. That's where I earned the title, "the number one honky tonk player." Because that's the only place you could play at that time was in the nightclubs.

GROSS: Well, you mentioned Western swing. You did an album -- I think it was in the late 1950s -- of songs that were first recorded by Bob Wills, the father of Western swing. Did you ever know him?

PRICE: Oh, yeah, I knew Bob real well. When I was first starting in Dallas he had a nightclub called Bob Wills Ranchouse, it later became another nightclub after he left it. But when he was on the road with his band he would always let me and a band play in his place. He did me a big favor. And of course that was my tribute to him, was that album.

GROSS: Well, this album features the band that you put together after you used the Hank Williams band, or one of the versions of the band you put together. And Willie Nelson is in this band. You had quite -- you had several really great people in your band. Johnny Bush was in your band for a while, the great singer.

PRICE: Roger Miller was the front man.

GROSS: Yeah. How did you find these people who became so famous in their own right. How did you end up having them as sidemen in your band?

PRICE: Well, they were all looking for a job, Terry. Everything was tough back there. I heard Roger -- he was working in the fire department in Amarillo, Texas. And I made him a fiddle player, and he came out to play fiddle. And his fiddle playing was terrible. When he got through he said, how did you like that?

I said, well can you sing and play guitar? And it kind of shook him and he said, yeah. So, I hired him as a front man. And he did real well. Roger and I were real close, just like Willie and I are still close.

GROSS: It sounded like you were determined to hire him whether he was good or not.

PRICE: Well, I had heard him sing.

GROSS: Oh, OK. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. And had you heard Willie Nelson sing before you hired him?

PRICE: Well, Willie worked for my publishing company Pamford Music (ph).

GROSS: Oh, so you knew his songs.

PRICE: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. All of them. And of course Willie was having a hard time too. And Johnny Paycheck had gone out on his own, and Willie replaced Johnny Paycheck on bass. And then he would play guitar sometimes.

GROSS: So, let's hear something from this Bob Wills tribute album. The one where Willie Nelson's featured in the band. And I just looked at the recording date on this, it was recorded in 1961. And I thought we'd hear "Time Changes Everything." Do you want to say anything about it?

PRICE: Just a great song.

GROSS: It is?

PRICE: Mmm-hmm.

GROSS: OK. Here goes.

PRICE: Country wise.

GROSS: This is Ray Price.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- COUNTRY MUSIC SINGER RAY PRICE PERFORMING "TIME CHANGES EVERYTHING")

There was a time
When I thought of no other
And we sang our own lost refrain
Our hearts beat as one

As we had our fun
But time changes everything
When you left me my poor heart was broken
Our romance seemed in vain

The dark clouds are gone
And there's blue sky again
But time changes everything

GROSS: That's Ray Price from his 1961 album "San Antonio Rose." That's a tribute to Bob Wills, and it's been re-issued in the past couple of years. Is that Willie Nelson singing harmony, by the way?

PRICE: Could have been. Willie and I recorded a "San Antonio Rose" album in 19 -- around 1979, I think.

GROSS: That was a big hit on the country charts.

PRICE: It was a big one. Real big.

GROSS: In the mid-'60s or so you started using more heavily arranged settings, you know, strings and orchestras -- moving away from the more honky tonk kind of sound. What led you in that direction?

PRICE: The honky tonks.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: What do you mean?

PRICE: Yeah, it wasn't fun playing honky tonks, and I was trying to broaden might orients out. Also I thought that if country music was going to really win approval all over the country they had to do something to kind of fix it where the people that listened to the Tony Bennetts and Frank Sinatras and those people could -- would like the song with the music.

And country music songs are great -- I think they're beautiful songs, and to put the strings with them that's my idea of how to make one really great song.

GROSS: Now, did that work for you? Did it get you where you wanted to be in venues that other pop singers were singing?

PRICE: Well, it got me got me in a lot of places, yeah. It sure did. I became one of Johnny Carson's favorite singers, which I'm very proud of. And I did a lot of things with him in New York before he went to California -- and afterwards.

But, yeah, it got me where I wanted to be. And I got out of the honky tonks. And I still play dances every now and then for some of my old fans, but I'm not really into that anymore.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm. Mmm-hmm. I know that there's a lot of country music performers who are, you know, acknowledged as being, you know, among the greats who don't get played much on country music radio anymore, including Johnny Cash, Willie Nelson. Do you feel that you're in that predicament as well?

PRICE: Well, yeah. I'm in the same box. That was always brought down from the higher ups in the industry, which I guess would be New York or L.A. And they felt like they could make a whole lot more money with the young kids playing rock music, but they had to name it something besides rock or it wouldn't sell. And so they named it country music, but it's really rock music. It's the old Beatles sound.

GROSS: So, I take it it's a sound you don't much like or don't feel that you can perform much.

PRICE: I like the Beatles. I think they ought to play the Beatles. They don't need to play the rest of them. The Beatles have already done it. Now, that sounds hateful and I'm sorry for that.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: I want to get back to your new CD. And as I mentioned earlier some of the songs on here are jazz and pop standards. And I thought I'd play another that fits in that category. This is the song, "Prisoner of Love." Tell me why you decided to sing this?

PRICE: Just a great song. I remember back years ago when Perry Como recorded it.

GROSS: Did you like Perry Como?

PRICE: Oh yeah.

GROSS: I've never heard it with this kind of band -- a kind of like shuffle beat behind it -- before.

PRICE: That's the old brass beat -- they call that. We thought it would fit so we put in there.

GROSS: It works very nicely. So why don't we hear it. And Ray Price, thank you so much for talking with us.

PRICE: Terry, it's my pleasure. Thank you, dear.

GROSS: Ray Price's forthcoming CD is expected to be released in the spring.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 888-NPR-NEWS

Dateline: Terry Gross, Washington, DC
Guest: Ray Price
High: Country music singer Ray Price. He was a close friend and protege of Hank Williams. Price's hits include "Talk to Your Heart," "Don't Let the Stars Get in Your Eyes," "I'll be There," "Crazy Arms," "For the Good Times," and more. In 1996 he was inducted into the Country Music Hall of Fame. His latest album "Ray Price: The Other Woman."
Spec: Entertainment; Music Industry; Culture; Lifestyle; Ray Price

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Ray Price

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 19, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 011902NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Sean Penn
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:30

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Sean Penn is starring in two new movies, neither is typical Hollywood fare. He plays a sergeant in the World War II movie "The Thin Red Line," it's director Terrence Malick's first film in about 20 years. The story follows an army rifle company that is sent to the South Sea island of Guadalcanal which has been invaded by the Japanese.

In this scene Penn's character, Sergeant Edward Welsh is reprimanding a soldier in his company, Private Witt, played by Jim Caviezel. Caviezel is back in the company after having gone AWOL.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "THE THIN RED LINE")

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Truth is you can't take straight duty in my company. You'll never be a real soldier. Not in God's world. This is C Company, of which I'm First Sergeant. I run this outfit. Now Captain Starros (ph) he's the CO, but I'm the guy who runs it.

Nobody's going to foul that up. You're just another mouth for me to feed. Normally you'd be court martialed, but I'll work a deal for you. You ought to consider yourself lucky. I'm sending you to a disciplinary outfit. You'll be a stretcher bearer. You'll be taking care of the wounded.

JIM CAVIEZEL, ACTOR: I can take anything you dish out. And I'm twice the man you are.

GROSS: Sean Penn's other new movie, "Hurly Burly" is based on a play by David Rabe. It's about three friends in Hollywood and their relationships with women. In this scene, Penn has learned that his roommate, played by Kevin Spacey, has spent the night with Penn's girlfriend. Here's Penn and Spacey on the telephone.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "HURLY BURLY")

SOUND OF TELEPHONE RINGING

KEVIN SPACEY, ACTOR: Yeah.

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Look, I'm not claiming any reprehensible behavior on anybody's part. I mean, we're all sophisticated people. Darlene and I certainly have no exclusive commitment to each other of any kind whatsoever, blah, blah, blah.

SPACEY: Well, that's exactly what I'm saying. Wrap this up.

PENN: There's no confusion here, Mickey, it's just have a little empathy for Christ's sake. I mean, I bring home this very special lady to meet my best friend, my roommate.

SPACEY: Eddie why do we have to go through this?

PENN: I'm just trying to tell a story here, Mickey. Nobody's to blame. Certainly not you. I mean, you came to me. You had experienced these vibes between yourself and Darlene. Isn't that what you said?

SPACEY: But couldn't you have said no. Couldn't you have categorically, definitively said no when I asked? But you said -- Eddie, you said, "everybody's free, Mickey." I mean, that is what you said.

PENN: Look, I just want to verify for you Mickey, everybody is free.

SPACEY: So what's this then?

PENN: You mean this conversation?

SPACEY: Yeah.

PENN: This is just me trying to maintain a viable relationship with reality. OK, I want to make sure I haven't drifted off into some solitary paranoid fantasy system of my own totally unfounded and idiosyncratic invention. I want to be in reality, you know. Don't you want me to be in reality? Personally, I want us to both be in reality. Come on!

SPACEY: Well, absolutely. That's what I want Eddie. I want us both to be in reality. Absolutely.

GROSS: Sean Penn welcome to FRESH AIR.

I want to talk first about your new movie, "Hurly Burly." The story is set in Hollywood. You play a casting agent. The story is about three guys -- four guys, I should say, who are particularly self-absorbed, self-destructive and very misogynistic. And very kind of caught up in the caught in the cocaine ethos of the period of the '80s when it was first -- when the play was first produced. I'm wondering if you relate to these characters. If you feel like you know characters like this.

SEAN PENN, ACTOR: Well, you know, I mean -- your description -- this word that has come up several times about relative to this play -- "misogyny." I think that the play makes its own case that it's really not -- that it doesn't really reflect the characters because there is nobody with whom they treat with less respect or more viciousness than themselves and each other. The men amongst themselves and each other.

And I think that there was actually -- "The New York Times" review was I think a very accurate notion that it's not so much the war between men and women that's dramatized as the war between men and themselves.

So -- so I kind of -- I find myself defending the play and the movie relative to that aspect of it. And also I find that in playing it that I don't have -- find myself running into reflections on that particular sentiment of some misogyny.

Yet, there is clearly a destructive cycle the that goes on in them, but again even the aspect of it that's cocaine is one that I relate much more to -- in the same way I would think, you know, when you look at some old Frank Sinatra movie and everybody's having a drink.

I don't think that's a movie about alcoholics anymore than this is about drug addicts. This is -- what is very common is this drug -- not only in the '80s but today I see it around just as much as I ever did in these settings. And it's a kind of -- certainly a dialog inducer. But I don't think it dictates the drum.

GROSS: Now, you did "Hurly Burly" onstage and onscreen. Did you see your character differently in the interim? You know, 12 years after you first played him?

PENN: I don't know that I could articulate the ways in which I saw it differently, but I could say that it was -- like with any good writing there's an ongoing experience where you keep sort of discovering new things. Yet, this is a movie that we made very little -- short funds and made the whole movie in 30 days.

So, there wasn't an awful lot of experimenting when it came time to shoot the scenes. There -- we had to be pretty sure of the choices we were going to make and go ahead and do them. We wouldn't be able to have, you know, five takes per setup even to be able to adjust options so much.

So, in a way if there was anything most different about the production of the play, where your consistently trying new things and so on. In this case, you know, major scenes are shot in one days shooting. And your pretty much committing to one choice or another.

GROSS: If you're just joining us my guest is Sean Penn. He's starring in the new movies "Hurly Burly" and "The Thin Red Line." Your new movie "The Thin Red Line" is a World War II movie set in the South Pacific, and it's about the soldiers who are sent to the South Pacific island of Guadalcanal which has been taken over by the Japanese.

And, you know, the war and all of its machinery and death is set against the beauty of this island and the peaceful nature of the people who living there. Would you describe your character in the film?

PENN: I -- you know, this is a question that is so much better put to Terry Malick because the way that he works is -- he's just somebody that I have great admiration, affection for. He's -- the way that he works, I think that if I -- it's hard to describe my own participation in any other terms but to sort of give him something that was neutral enough that he could use it to write a character in the cutting room.

There was a -- as we went along we tried to develop some specific aspects of, you know, what part this character was going to play in telling the story. But we didn't -- it was never very clear what they -- the specific arc of that telling was going to be.

So scene for scene it was a different experience than normally you would have where you sort of graph a character. So, I think that, you know, if somebody was behind that, it's Terry much more than me. And he's unreachable for comment but he's the one to put that to.

GROSS: I'll try to sum up your character in the movie. Have you seen the movie, by the way?

PENN: I have.

GROSS: You have, OK. I'll try to sum up the character, and I'm always afraid I reduce things to cliche when I do this but here we go. I mean, it's kind of a classic character in a way the guy who seems kind of tough and distant but would risk his life in a second to save, you know, someone in his company.

And then there's this line where someone asks him if he ever gets lonely. And he says something like only when I'm around other people.

PENN: Yeah.

GROSS: You know, there's some -- especially early in the movie there's a lot of close-up's of faces in the film. And I'm wondering when you're acting if you're aware of when you're going to have a tight close-up like that and if that effects the kind of performance you give for that scene.

PENN: Again, I think that really -- that varies movie to movie, scene to scene. And certainly I know that there -- I can't say for sure whether I'm one of the people that this is true of or not, but I know there are several close ups in the picture that were initially in response to something other than what the point of view that was cut into it represents.

So you're taking one train of thought that's going on in someone's face and applying it to a new setting in the editorial process which is something that Terry may, at times, be very conscious he's going to do later. I don't really now.

Again, he was somebody who -- I enjoy him partly because there's not an awful lot of chatter you can have about his process because it's not one that he can really talk about. It's something that goes on inside his head. So, trying to second-guess that stuff would be a mistake.

So in the case of this movie I would say that I don't know that I was particularly conscious of making adjustments based on the size of the frame.

GROSS: My guest is Sean Penn. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: My guest is Sean Penn. He's starring in the new movie "Hurly Burly" set in Hollywood and "The Thin Red Line" set in Guadalcanal in World War II.

Did you see a lot of war movies when you were growing up?

PENN: I suppose I saw my share. Now, mind you, that means mostly contemporary movies because most of the older movies, and this goes back to my view of something like, you know, not just war movies but even classic films like "Grapes of Wrath" and some of these things.

I don't like them very much. I don't really find that I respond to them cinematically very much, and that has been true also with some of the other films. And I did see "From Here to Eternity" which had some sort of entertaining things in it and all, but I feel like it's packed with cliches and it's not really the kind of filmmaking I'm interested in. So probably the contemporary films about war are of more interest to me. Like Sam Fuller's movies.

GROSS: Right. Right. You have been in two war movies that I can think of, "Casualties of War" which is a Vietnam film shot -- directed by Brian DePalma. And of course now "Thin Red Line." Would you maybe compare for us what the experience of shooting both of those films was like?

There were battle scenes in both of those films that you were in. Can you compare the experience of how you were directed or what your sense of being in the midst of battle was in both of those scenes. One's World War II, one's Vietnam.

PENN: Well, I think that it is -- Brian DePalma, my sense of him as a director is that he has a kind of story he wants to tell, often with composition and camera movement that's -- and he's a very operatic filmmaker, I think. Which at times I think is very effective and at other times I'm not sure that it's the most effective way of working.

That was a script I thought was very interesting also, because -- which was also written by David Rabe.

GROSS: Right, who did "Hurly Burly."

PENN: Right. And so in some ways there was -- one felt very free in "Casualties of War" in the sense that if you were standing in the part of the composition that Brian was interested in capturing, from that point on you -- he wasn't that concerned about what nuances you may bring as an actor to the part.

Whereas with Terry you are -- I find that Terry Malick is a director that people look at throughout the day trying to find out what part of the journey he's on and how to serve the piece that he's making. So you find yourself observing Terry's search in trying to like, kind of grasp onto it.

But I think the simpler answer to your question is both of the movies were shot in tropical jungles and I like tropical jungles a lot.

GROSS: I'm wondering if it's disorienting to be in a scene with, you know, when there's fighting and bombs or grenades or a lot of gunfire and the purpose of the scene is in a way to show the confusion of the battlefield. Is it confusing to be an actor in the middle of that?

PENN: Well, there's the old story about the actor who gets his first part, and his line is -- you know, he's on the hill with the cannons and cannons go off, and his line is, "hark, I hear the cannons roar." And he's practicing it over and over in his trailer. Finally, they call him to the set, and action and the cannon goes off. He says, what the hell was that?

LAUGHTER

GROSS: Right.

PENN: You know, that's out there. But I find that when you know that those things are going to be there it's -- for me I've always found that those things can really be a barometer of where your attention has to be, and sort of define what your concentration will be.

You know, I think that it makes sense for that to be disoriented -- disorienting -- if this is a soldier in his first battle. Or if this is somebody who has not been in the training of that kind of situation, but if you've been around it a lot as, certainly the characters I've played in these pictures had been, then I think that you're really focusing on dealing with it as a danger that's bigger than you can actually deal with.

You're a little bit in the hands of something bigger than you are at that point. And so you try to do your job. I mean, I think that in a character in a war picture is somebody who has a job and there are -- there's training that goes along with that job and there are ways that you adjust to situations. I think the focus is on doing your job out there -- doing that job in that case of the soldier.

GROSS: I read that years ago you told Terrence Malick that -- Terrence Malick hadn't made a movie in 20 years before "The Thin Red Line," and you had told him at some point that if he ever made a movie again you'd like to be in it and that you would do it for a dollar. What was it about his movies that inspired that enthusiasm? And he made "Badlands" and "Days of Heaven."

PENN: Well, I think it was his movies that were among those that I had come to right around the time that cinemas were starting to interest me anyway. And they were pivotal in my interest in film which began as an interest in direction. And they really stuck with me. And I re-viewed them over the years.

And there was a certain kind of true poetry to the way that he made movies that I felt was so missing in other people's filmmaking, and that he was really important that way. And I found it very inspiring, and so those are the people, I think, that you support.

GROSS: He gave a making films for 20 years. Now, you've said in recent interviews that you would like to give up acting. I assume that that means you'd still direct, but you'd just prefer not to act.

PENN: Yeah. I love to make movies.

GROSS: I'm wondering if you talked to him about his 20 years of not making movies and got a sense of what his experience not making movies was like. And if that effected your thoughts on not acting.

PENN: I take Terry at his word when he describes it as he forgot to make movies.

LAUGHTER

So he remembered he made movies and he came back and he made one.

GROSS: He really sounds like a character.

PENN: He's very interesting man.

GROSS: Tell me more about why you want to stop acting. I mean, I've been reading about this in recent articles about you.

PENN: I just don't enjoy it.

GROSS: Is it because other people are controlling the whole film and you're just an actor in it or is it that you don't like acting?

PENN: I think it's a combination of a lot of things. I mean, one of the things -- the most important thing I could share with you about it I think is something that I'm not going to be the only to face. I mean, audiences are already paying the price of the fact that things that one would act in are by and large so compromised by the time they are made.

And they're compromised by the actors that do them and they're compromised by the directors and they're compromised by the writers. And some of it I understand, and some of it I blame them for. There's a self-imposed censorship that happens.

When people write and they're aware of what studios will finance -- what they won't finance. Those who write take on what they like to consider as the courageous subjects, there are ways to dramatize courageous subjects that make them cowardly.

And that's, by and large, the way that important issues are addressed by filmmakers today. They find a way to soften them. They find a way to allow an audience to be comfortable. And I think that whenever it was that filmmaking became the art of massage is when I got less and less interested in participating in it as an actor.

So that's where material has been a key to me not being interested. It's not just not there. And rare is the day that you get something and usually don't get paid well to do it because you have to really fight to get it done. And I've had a long history of those. And it beats you up.

And I think that -- I think the way that critics do not look passed those -- I think critics think they're much like studios do. I would venture to say that I can't think of a critic who I have any feelings of support for. Those who have ever said anything good about me -- I might appreciate it one moment, come out the next minute and say something so ridiculous about something or so unsupportive of someone's terrific piece of work somewhere along line.

You think these people have no real grounded notion of what it is that their job is. And that's very frustrating. So the whole world of film today has become -- you know, when I grew up watching films -- I think the '70s were probably the last time one could say that of the ten most successful pictures that came out each year, eight of them were probably the best films that came out that year.

Now, of the ten most successful films none of them are among the ten best. And that distance is growing and growing. And I just feel that I can do what I want to do much more directly as a writer and as a director.

GROSS: Let me ask you -- this is in a way asking you to play film critic for a moment. But since your most recent movie is a film set during World War II, I'm wondering if you saw "Saving Private Ryan" which is one of the most commercially and critically successful films of the year. And probably will win a whole lot of Academy Awards. Do you think that was a good film?

PENN: Let me not talk specifically about "Saving Private Ryan," but there is one contribution that I would like to make to the ridiculous world of films self-acknowledgement with awards. I think they should have an award every year for best half movie of the year.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: Why?

PENN: Because I think there are a lot of filmmakers that are capable of sincere -- have very skillful, and maybe even artful at times, who do not trust audiences, do not trust their material enough to tell something truly from start to finish. And so what they do in an extraordinary fashion is betray it by the pandering of the rest of the storytelling.

GROSS: I'd like to start giving an award for best performances in mediocre or formulaic movies, because I find that there's a lot of really terrific performances in movies that are not really worthy of the actors who are in them.

PENN: Yeah, that's true too.

GROSS: So, do you get sent a lot of scripts and you think this is dreck?

PENN: Yes.

GROSS: My guest is Sean Penn. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: My guest is Sean Penn. He's starring in the new movies "Hurly Burly" and "The Thin Red Line." I want to ask you a question about President Clinton and about the way his relationship with Monica Lewinsky has been handled.

I know that the people opposing him would make the case that this is about perjury and it's not about sex, but nevertheless no matter which side of the fence you're on it's quite clear that a sexual relationship has been made very very public in his life.

You are a celebrity -- a Hollywood star -- whose personal life has been the subject of a lot of press. You had papparazzi who were nearly stalking you for quite a while. And I'm wondering, as someone who has probably felt much more exposed than you wanted to be and much more under surveillance than you wanted to be, if that's affecting your perception of President Clinton's story.

PENN: Well, clearly I wouldn't be able to tell you how I would feel if I hadn't had those experiences, but I'd like to think that it would be the way that I feel without having had them. You know, I think -- what's interesting about it to me is it's such -- is that in the way support continues for him despite it -- the thing that I think is most -- that I'm most optimistic because of that is that we still seem as a culture to finally, at the end of the day, most celebrate survival.

And anybody can stand there and take the punches that this guy has taken -- forget about whether you believe in his policies, forget if you think the president is or isn't an ineffectual pawn of multinational corporate interests anymore. If he's nothing else, he's a symbol of incredible resilience. And I think that that's very good for this country.

GROSS: Sean Penn, the last time we did an interview you had to leave the Los Angeles studio because it's a no smoking studio. So we ended up doing by phone from your place, which is how we're doing it today as well. Are you still smoking?

PENN: I have let my daughter know that I'll be quitting.

GROSS: No kidding. Is she old enough to pressure you?

PENN: Oh, yeah. They turn them into little anarchists at schools now.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: So what...

PENN: ...they encourage them to throw your packs in the sink and put water in them and throw them in the trash bin.

GROSS: So what strategy -- are you going to do that thing where you moistened the cigarettes in the sink and then you -- I remember there was a time when people use to carry around jars with cigarette stubs in it and when they got the urge to smoke they were supposed to open up the jar and inhale all the old cigarette stubs in the hopes that that would nauseate them.

PENN: Well, you're nauseating me just bringing it up.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: So what's your technique going to be?

PENN: Cold turkey.

GROSS: Cold turkey. Well, I wish you luck with it.

PENN: Thank you.

GROSS: And thank you very much for talking about -- talking with us about your new movies.

PENN: You bet.

GROSS: Sean Penn is starring in "The Thin Red Line" and "Hurly Burly." He'll play a jazz musician in Woody Allen's next film.

I'm Terry Gross.

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Dateline: Terry Gross, Washington, DC
Guest: Sean Penn
High: Actor Sean Penn. He's currently starring in the new films, "Hurly Burly" and "The Thin Red Line." Penn previously starred in "Dead Man Walking." Penn also wrote and directed the film "The Indian Runner," which he wrote based on a Bruce Springsteen song, and "The Crossing Guard."
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Lifestyle; Culture; Sean Penn

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Sean Penn
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.