'The Office' Crosses the Pond

DATE March 24, 2005 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Rebecca Miller discusses her latest movie, growing
up and her career decisions
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest Rebecca Miller wrote and directed the new movie "The Ballad of Jack
and Rose." It's set in 1986 and stars her husband Daniel Day-Lewis as Jack, a
father who lives with his 16-year-old daughter Rose on a beautiful island in
an abandoned commune that he co-founded in the '60s. He's managed to keep
their lives isolated from what he sees as a corrupted world, but that world is
moving in on them. A developer is building houses on the island, and Jack
believes he will soon die of his heart ailment. Fearing he will leave his
daughter alone, he invites his girlfriend, played by Catherine Keener, and her
two teen-age sons to move in. All he tells Rose is that he's invited some
guests, but she figures out what's happening.

(Soundbite from "The Ballad of Jack and Rose")

CAMILLA BELLE: (As Rose) They're not guests. They're moving in.

Mr. DANIEL DAY-LEWIS: (As Jack) Our guests. We see...

GROSS: Well, we had a clip prepared for you, but apparently there's some
technical problems. So why don't we move right into the interview? The clip
we were going to hear, she was quarreling with her father and saying, `They've
moved in to stay. They're not really guests.' So in the role of Rose is
Camilla Belle, and, of course, Daniel Day-Lewis is her father. Rebecca Miller
met Lewis at a screening of a film he was starring in, "The Crucible," which
was adapted from the play by her father, the late Arthur Miller. Rebecca
Miller's first two films, "Angela" and "Personal Velocity," won awards at the
Sundance Film Festival. I talked with her about her new film.

Now the point of view of the father is that, you know, even though this
Utopian commune no longer exists, he's going to live here, withdrawn from the
rest of the world. He doesn't really like the rest of the world. He says to
his daughter `Decline and rot, my angel, that's the way of the world, except
for you. You're exempt.' So he wants them both to keep their distance from
the world and it seems in a way that you think his idealism has become both
anti-social and kind of bullying.

Ms. REBECCA MILLER: Well, I think so. I think that Jack is a person who's
always striving for his own goodness, trying to find his own goodness. He
doesn't always succeed in that. And I think one of the things that makes him
such a loveable character, finally, and why one can love him, is that that's
what he's trying to do. Isolating Rose is something he did because he felt it
was the moral thing to do. He felt like society had gone in a direction that
he couldn't support. He felt--he feels like the world is a violent place,
materialistic place, and a place that--where none of his values are reflected.
And he wanted to raise Rose in a pure way. So he's doing what he thinks is
the good thing to do. It's not--there are drawbacks and I think he discovers
those as the film rolls on.

GROSS: What's the closest you've come to living in a commune?

Ms. MILLER: I really haven't lived in a commune. I observed commune life as
a child--my brother, Robert, who is 16 years older than me, really lived the
life. He went--he lived in communes, one commune in California, then another
one in Oregon, near ...(unintelligible). He--well, he--by that time, it was
less of a commune and more of a loose, I think, kind of arrangement of people
living near each other. But I was fascinated by the whole way of life of
these people, the way that they seemed so free and so innocent in a sense.
And I think I was looking at it through the eyes of a child, which, of course,
is a very specific perspective and the idea of people being able to, I guess,
subjugate their own egos to the idea of the whole was something that seemed
like such an impossible and beautiful dream to me. And I think that's
where--you know, why I gave Jack that ideal.

GROSS: Do you think that he people who your brother lived with, and your
brother himself, succeeded in subjugating their egos to the larger group?

Ms. MILLER: No, finally, they all went off to live private lives. And I
think one of the things the film's about is how hard it is to be Utopian and
how in a way that Utopianism, perfection in general is a kind of dangerous
thing. Jack becomes a--has become a very unforgiving person because of it,
which, you know, and it--finally, I guess, I'm plugging for just a more
forgiving way of looking at people and life but without losing one's idealism.

GROSS: Now I understand that a much earlier draft of "The Ballad of Jack and
Rose" was written more from the point of view of Rose, the daughter, whereas
the final movie you're really seeing both of their points of view, I think?

Ms. MILLER: Yeah. I mean, I think that what happened was I started writing
this in 1993 at which point I was a daughter and by the time I finished it I
was a mother. And I think that part of that--part of the shift in the
screenplay had to do with me understanding more and more of Jack's point of
view. And becoming more and more fascinated by that character, and realizing
that the balance of the screenplay needed to be--he--we needed more of Jack.
And, in fact, when I cut the film, after I shot the film, sort of cut it and
saw the power of Daniel Day-Lewis' performance, I realized that, again, I
found myself so drawn to his conflict that it just needed to be more central,
even though in the end it is both of their film. I think that one is very
drawn into his conflict. His conflict finally--that's drama, you know.

GROSS: Which conflict are you describing?

Ms. MILLER: The--well, his conflict as opposed--between his intense love for
his daughter which in fact finally is just too much to bear. He needs to
bring other people into their world so that he doesn't fall in love with her.
And that conflict in him ...(unintelligible) generates the actions in the
screenplay.

GROSS: What made you think about how parental love can risk crossing the line
to an almost romantic love?

Ms. MILLER: I think that the love of a parent for a child is oceanic, endless
and kind of bottomless, and that the love of a mother for--this is my
experience, of course, as only as a mother, but for her baby is really--it's a
love that has all loves inside of it, feels like being in love, it feels like,
you know, protective love, it feels like every kind of love. And, of course,
we all live in a society where we know our roles and we act within our roles
and that makes civilized life possible but when you put two people in a world
where there's no one else, and there's no society and there's no civilization
and one of them is completely unsocialized, it makes for an interesting story.

GROSS: Now you cast your husband, Daniel Day-Lewis, as Jack, the father. It
would have been potentially awkward had he said to you `I don't really like
this very much. I'm not going to do the role.' I mean, what kind of choice
does that give him?

Ms. MILLER: Well, that--I mean, you know, the thing is that--no, but the
thing is that you have to--in order to understand that, you have to understand
that Daniel just can't do anything as a favor. I mean, he's really incapable
of doing--I mean, do his work the favor because he just wouldn't be able to.
So it gives you a lot of freedom in offering him something knowing that even
if you are his mother or his sister, his ...(unintelligible) wife, he really
won't say yes because he wouldn't feel like he could do the best work unless
he has that kind of gnawing curiosity that finally makes him say yes to
something. Generally, in my experience, he's looking to say no because of--he
knows he has to give himself over so completely and it's a long time and there
are a lot of other things he'd like to be doing.

GROSS: My guest is Rebecca Miller. She wrote and directed the new film "The
Ballad of Jack and Rose." We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: My guest is Rebecca Miller. She wrote and directed the new film "The
Ballad of Jack and Rose."

Your father was Jewish and that figured into some of his work. I read that
you converted to Catholicism at the age of 13. Why did you convert?

Ms. MILLER: I had neighbors who were Catholic and somehow I ended up getting
a ride to church every Sunday and they were my best--it was actually the
family of my best friend growing up who Rodney is based on. The character of
Rodney in my film is based on Chris, my friend, who was the son of this
family. And I used to go to church with them and I was very taken by the
power of, I guess, what Catholicism is all about. I mean, what I perceived it
to be all about. Unfortunate--I mean, I think I took the worst of it. I was
very interested in guilt and hell, my two main things that I was interested
in. And only later came to appreciate the more positive elements of
Christianity like love and mercy.

I was--had my own little mythology as a child. I was quite haunted by
spiritual matters from a very early age, and I think that because I was--my
parents weren't religious, in the sense of going to synagogue or church, I had
a kind of hunger for some--I guess some way of embodying this spiritual hunger
I had. And church was it. I got the ride to Catholic Church and so I became
Catholic. And, you know, it gave me a lot and it taught me a lot in those
years.

GROSS: Let me read something from your collection of short stores, "Personal
Velocity," upon which your film is based. And this is from the short story
"Greta." `Strangely Greta had never felt particularly Jewish. Her parents
hadn't ever brought her to a synagogue. Being Jewish was taken for granted in
the family, like having skin. When Greta thought about being Jewish, she
thought of a dark room with an old lady in a rocking chair in the corner.
She didn't know why.' Does that describe you, too?

Ms. MILLER: Well, not exactly. Greta is far more--her family's far more
Jewish than mine was. Her mother was born in a camp. My mother was
Christian--Austria--I mean, she wasn't actually actively Christian because she
had been born--she had been baptized Protestant in Austria. So I think that
some of Greta's feelings about Jewishness have to do with the kind of taste of
death that she has from her mother's experience. And a feeling like there's a
kind of pall cast over the Jewishness in her. I mean, for me, I guess I
didn't identify with being Jewish at all early on. And I'm not sure exactly
why.

I think because--perhaps because we didn't go to synagogue and because my
friends were Christians and I was living in a small town in Connecticut.
There just weren't any--I was--there were no Jews around. And so I just
identified with the people that were around me and since there was nothing to
counterbalance that at home, really, that's the way I went. I mean, I'd say
that my father was culturally quite Jewish. I mean, I felt--I could--I knew
the difference between the Jewish humor in my family and his side of the family
and the more Christian kind of way of looking at things. That I sort of
understand. But the rituals and the history and all of that was not really
part of my life.

GROSS: Are you still a practicing Catholic?

Ms. MILLER: No. I'm not. I'm not. I'm just a confused person.

GROSS: Can I ask you how you drifted away from the church?

Ms. MILLER: I think I finally couldn't reconcile the way I needed to live my
life and the curiosity I had about life with really being a good Christian, a
good Catholic, in the sense of--well, in particular, sexuality, when I was
just starting out as a young woman, and also, maybe the most important thing,
is that I finally learned more about other religions, Judaism and Islam and
the rest of it, and I thought `Well, why are they--how can they be wrong? Why
are they necessarily wrong, and then Christianity's right?' And then my--I
just ceased to believe that there could be an answer. I believed in God and I
think I still find myself believing in God. But I think I've ceased to
believe that anybody has the--has broken the code. I guess I believe in the
mystery.

GROSS: Can I ask how your father felt when you became Catholic, if he
accepted that?

Ms. MILLER: He wasn't happy.

GROSS: He wasn't happy. Yeah.

Ms. MILLER: Not happy.

GROSS: I wouldn't expect him to be happy.

Ms. MILLER: No. Maybe that's why I did it. I don't know.

GROSS: In part a little rebellion.

Ms. MILLER: Maybe. I don't know. I didn't feel that way at the time, but,
you know...

GROSS: Now I read that one of your next projects is going to be adapting your
father's first play into...

Ms. MILLER: Yeah, I mean, I'm not going to direct it. I'm just writing it.

GROSS: Oh.

Ms. MILLER: I'm just adapting it to write.

GROSS: Why did you decide to do that?

Ms. MILLER: I was offered it a while ago and it was a way of spending more
time with my dad and at that time I knew he was sick and I liked the--I always
liked the play a lot, "The Man Who Had All the Luck," and I thought I could
give it a go. I mean, I do tend to take a job a year as a screenplay writer,
just to write a screenplay. I did another one last year, and I thought `Why
not have it be this because it'--you know, I actually care a lot about it.

GROSS: So this was play that opened in 1944 and closed after four
performances. Did you talk to him while he was still alive about this play
and get any insights that you could use for the adaptation?

Ms. MILLER: Yeah, but sadly I--not enough, you know. I wish that I had
started earlier.

GROSS: Your mother was a photographer. Did she influence you, visually? Did
she help teach you to think visually?

Ms. MILLER: Yeah, I mean, it's interested, you know, that--I would say that
my influence is almost more from my mother than my father. My mother
was--talked about photographs and paintings, took me to galleries, talked to
me about composition, about the power of composition, about how if you
photograph something one way, it means something different, than if you move
two feet to the left, or the right. Because, you know, in the end, film is a
visual medium and you're expressing emotion in a visual way. And I think that
also my mother's sweetness and her tenderness toward her subjects is something
that I guess influenced the way I like to be on the set. You know? Kind of
non-aggressive approach, which is definitely hers.

GROSS: I want to get back to your new movie, "The Ballad of Jack and Rose."
One of my favorite characters in your film is one of the sons, Rodney, one of
the sons of the father's girlfriend.

Ms. MILLER: Right.

GROSS: And so, you know, this woman and her two sons, two teen-age sons, move
in with Jack and Rose. And, you know, she has--so there's two sons here, one
of them is kind of sullen and rebellious and like wild and unpredictable but
in a quiet sullen way.

Ms. MILLER: Yeah.

GROSS: And the other son is--he's very funny, he's very observant, his goal
is to be a hairdresser. He loves hair.

Ms. MILLER: Right.

GROSS: And he's overweight and his mother's always riding him on that, always
trying to get him to eat less.

Ms. MILLER: Right.

GROSS: But he's like the voice of reason within the movie and a funny voice
of reason at that. And I'd be interested in hearing about this character.

Ms. MILLER: Yeah. Well, I mean, that character was sort of loosely based on
my best friend growing up, a boy who--he and I were kind of inseparable for
many, many years until high school. And--then through high school, actually.
And he was just a very funny chubby, extremely intelligent kid who--and, you
know, for me, Rodney is somebody who turns his pain into humor, and sees life
in a humorous way and he's a very, very touching character and I think that,
you know, the love I have for this prototype is--you know, you can feel it.
And also I have to say that Ryan McDonald, who's the young actor who played
Rodney, just took that part and really made it into a real person. You know?
It's one thing to write all those lines on the page, but I had to listen to
many auditions in which, you know, lovely young men just couldn't get it
because it's really, really hard to do that, to be funny like that in a
natural way and to be so touching and I think Ryan is going to be a very, very
important actor in his life. I really believe in it.

GROSS: Are you still in touch with your old friend who Ryan is based on?

Ms. MILLER: Oh, yeah. We--he lives in the town where I grew up still. And
we see each other all the time.

GROSS: Rebecca Miller, thank you so much for talking with us.

Ms. MILLER: Thank you.

GROSS: Rebecca Miller wrote and directed the new film "The Ballad of Jack and
Rose."

I'm Terry Gross. And this is FRESH AIR.

Here's a scene in which Rose is trying to seduce Rodney. She's spied on her
father and Rodney's mother being intimate and decides she wants to have her
first sexual experience. She strips nearly naked, and startles Rodney, who's
sitting at the kitchen table.

(Soundbite of "The Ballad of Jack and Rose")

RYAN McDONALD: (As Rodney) What are you doing?

BELLE: (As Rose) I want you to do it to me.

McDONALD: (As Rodney) Oh, my God.

BELLE: (As Rose) I never did it before. Not even partly.

McDONALD: (As Rodney) And what made you select tonight for your initiation?

BELLE: (As Rose) Because I have to do it right away.

McDONALD: (As Rodney) My brother is out at the moment, probably doing
something along these lines, so if you maybe want to take a seat in his
bedroom, I'm sure he'll be happy to oblige.

BELLE: (As Rose) I don't like him.

McDONALD: (As Rodney) That's funny. I don't like him either. Look, it's not
funny. OK? This is tragic. It's not exactly tragic. It's ridiculous, OK?
Lookit--no, look, wait. OK, I--all right, I wasn't aware that on top of being
trapped in retro world due to my mother's savior complex I myself was to
become a sort of sex toy for my angelic, possibly disturbed, certainly odd,
new sister. OK? Let's not forget that part. Who are you people?

(Soundbite of music)

(Credits)

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Coming up, Paul Haggis. He wrote the screenplay for "Million Dollar
Baby." We'll talk about the ending, why it has personal meaning for him. His
new film "Crash" opens in May. Also, jazz critic Kevin Whitehead reviews a
new CD from Paul Motian, Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano, and TV critic David
Bianculli reviews NBC's new version of the BBC hit sitcom "The Office."

(Soundbite of music)

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Review: New jazz album by Paul Motian, Bill Frisell and Joe Lovano
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

In 1981, jazz drummer Paul Motian recorded with a quintet, including two
little-known younger players, guitarist Bill Frisell and tenor saxophonist Joe
Lovano. Before long, those three were performing occasionally as a trio, a
setting each came to love dearly. Nowadays, all three players keep busy with
various projects of their own, but they still reunite to tour once in a while.
Motian, Frisell and Lovano have a new CD out. Jazz critic Kevin Whitehead
likes the band.

(Soundbite of "I Have the Room Above Her")

KEVIN WHITEHEAD (Jazz Critic): Jerome Kern's "I Have the Room Above Her,"
title track from a new CD by the Motian/Frisell/Lovano trio, one of the great
jazz groups of the last 20 years. Way back in the early '60s, Paul Motian
played drums in pianist Bill Evans' trio, which specialized in sensitive
explorations of classic pop tunes. You might hear Motian's trio with Joe
Lovano and Bill Frisell as their successor. There's the same subtle interplay
at ballad tempos with a ballad's tender sensibilities.

(Soundbite of "Meet Me Tonight in Dreamland")

WHITEHEAD: That's from the other oldie on Paul Motian's new album, a mystery
number Thelonious Monk once recorded as "Meet Me Tonight in Dreamland."
Monk's presence is felt in other ways here. In this group, more than any
other, Bill Frisell plays all those pretty Jim Hall guitar chords, but he also
learned a mountain from Monk about oblique ways to underline another
musician's solo. It's not your normal jazz guitar.

(Soundbite of jazz music)

WHITEHEAD: This format fits the players tighter than O.J.'s glove. Paul
Motian is a reactive drummer. Keeping up a steady pulse is less important
than commenting on the action. To make a heartfelt point of his own, he might
even slow the beat down, one of the first things drummers learn not to do.
His creative looseness demands side folk with a strong internal clock.
Saxophonist Joe Lovano is one of those jazz maestros who always knows where he
is in relation to the beat, no matter how knotted up his own mind gets. Like
Motian, he's audibly influenced by Ornette Coleman's nursery-rhyming tunes in
free timing. Along with Frisell's country touches, he gives the band a whiff
of a ramshackle roadhouse.

(Soundbite of jazz music)

WHITEHEAD: In truth, there's not so much of a roadhouse feel on this album
compared to others the trio have made. It's on the ECM label, whose
traditionally glossy, reverby sound can work against this material. It
undercuts changes in texture when Lovano or Frisell drop out or pop back in.
ECM is partial to slow, moody ballads, too, which likely explains the
preponderance of them here and why the zippier numbers are buried later in the
program. They're in there, but you have to hunt a little.

(Soundbite of jazz music)

GROSS: Kevin Whitehead teaches English and American studies at the University
of Kansas, and he's a jazz columnist for EMusic.com.

Coming up, Paul Haggis. He wrote the screenplay for "Million Dollar Baby."
This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Interview: Paul Haggis discusses writing the screenplay for the
film "Million Dollar Baby"
TERRY GROSS, host:

If you've seen "Million Dollar Baby," I think you'll be very interested in
what you're about to hear. If you haven't seen it, let me warn you that we
talk about the ending, an ending which proved to be controversial.

My guest Paul Haggis wrote the screenplay for the film. It won four of the
top Academy Awards this year, including best picture. Haggis has written for
many TV shows. He wrote and directed the new movie "Crash," which opens in
May. Here's a scene from "Million Dollar Baby." Hilary Swank has been trying
to convince a boxing trainer, played by Clint Eastwood,' to take her on.
She's working out in his gym late at night.

(Soundbite of "Million Dollar Baby")

Ms. HILARY SWANK: (As Maggie Fitzgerald) I'm 32, Mr. Dunn, and I'm here
celebratin' the fact that I spent another year scrapin' dishes and
waitressin', which is what I've been doin' since 13. And according to you,
I'll be 37 before I can even throw a decent punch, which after workin' this
speed bag for a while, you know why I know Eli's maybe God's simple truth.
Other truth is, my brother's in prison. My sister cheats on welfare by
pretendin' one of her babies is still alive. My daddy's dead and my mama
weighs 312 pounds. If I was thinkin' straight I'd go back home, find a used
trailer, buy a deep fryer and some Oreos. Problem is, this is the only thing
I ever felt good doin'. If I'm too old for this, then I got nothin'. That
enough truth to suit you?

Mr. CLINT EASTWOOD: (As Frankie Dunn) This your speed bag?

Ms. SWANK: It sure is, behind the counter. Wish I could say I wore it out.

(Soundbite of punching bag)

Mr. EASTWOOD: Hold it. Hold it. I'll show you a few things, and then we'll
get you a trainer.

Ms. SWANK: No. Sorry.

Mr. EASTWOOD: You're in a position to negotiate?

Ms. SWANK: Yes, sir, because I know if you train me right, I'm going to be a
champ. I seen you lookin' at me.

Mr. EASTWOOD: Yeah, out of pity.

Ms. SWANK: Don't you say that. Don't you say that if it ain't true. I want
a trainer. I don't want charity, and I don't want favors.

GROSS: A scene from "Million Dollar Baby." Paul Haggis based his screenplay
on two short stories from a collection of stories by FX Toole, a former boxing
corner man. Toole died in 2002 while Haggis was still at work.

Mr. PAUL HAGGIS (Screenwriter, "Million Dollar Baby"): He'd read my first
draft and he'd read my story and gave me his input on that, and mostly there
were technical things; you know, he thought the girl should--he wanted to make
sure the girl was in the right weight class and things like this. And I was
very moved by his piece and didn't want to stray too far from it. He knew so
much about the world that I didn't really have to reach outside much for the
research. So he was pretty pleased with it.

GROSS: How did you get this into the hands of Clint Eastwood?

Mr. HAGGIS: Well, it took about three and a half years, and it was a long,
arduous process of casting. And I was really focused on getting Hilary Swank
and Morgan Freeman and Clint in this film, and--but Clint was off directing
"Mystic River." And he'd read the short stories before I started writing, and
at the time, he didn't see--he loved the short stories, but just didn't see
how they would make a movie. And we finally were able to get Hilary and
Morgan, so once we got her involved--and I was off shooting this little movie
"Crash." The--Al called me and said, you know, `I think it's the right time
to approach Clint." And this was last--well, a year ago December.

And so we sent it to him, and Clint at the time said, `Listen, I've retired
from acting, but I'll read it because, you know, you're my friend.' And so he
read it over the course of a weekend and called back and said, `I'd really
love to do it. And can I direct?' And we said, `Yeah!' And so he--from the
time that he signed on to the time it was in the movie theaters was about 10
months, which, if you know anything about movies and the way we make them
here, that's incredibly short. He just--once he decides on something, he just
does it.

GROSS: This is the part of the interview in which I warned people, `If you
haven't seen the movie and you don't want to know anything about its outcome,
and you haven't read all the other reviews and articles that have already
explained it, then you might want to tune away for a couple of minutes and
join us soon.' And I hate to suggest to anyone that they leave, but I don't
want to ruin anything for you. But I will say here that I think it's such a
fine movie that even if you knew the complete story, it would still be a
wonderful movie and totally worth seeing.

So, that said, in the second half of the film, the young woman boxer gets hit,
falls, breaks her neck and becomes a quadriplegic. She's unable to breathe,
she's unable to move; she's unable to do anything, basically, except speak.
And she finally really begs Clint Eastwood, who is her promoter and the person
closest to her in this world, to help her die. It's the only thing she wants.
And so this became very controversial, and it became, really, part of the
culture wars, because it was largely, I think, pundits on the right who were
criticizing the movie for this. Did you ever expect that?

Mr. HAGGIS: No. I was blindsided by that, especially the criticism that
came out about Clint and that he had some sort of agenda. As far as--I mean,
obviously, this was a movie that I knew was going to have an impact, and
neither of us set out to make a polemic. We certainly didn't want to do a
movie that was pro-euthanasia. It was about dignity, we felt. And I think
one thing we tried very hard to do was to balance the points of view.

You had Clint Eastwood's character, to whom this was--the idea of euthanasia
was anathema, that--he was a Catholic who, you know, went to church every day
and truly believed that what he was doing, or what he was being asked to do,
was a mortal sin, and that he would lose his immortal soul by doing this. And
those were the stakes. This wasn't anything light for him or anything that
you would--`Oh, OK, I can do that.' I wanted it to be a terrible battle, and
the choice was hers, not his. And it was just--he had to respect that choice,
and even though it caused him to ultimately lose his soul.

So I don't think we could have stacked the stakes any higher. So it certainly
wasn't something in which someone says, `Oh, would you please kill me,' and
the other person says, `Oh, OK.' It was a terrible, terrible journey for both
of them.

GROSS: You know, in fact, I want to read a sentence from the FX Toole story
that your movie is partially based on, because it's based on a couple of
stories.

Mr. HAGGIS: Yes.

GROSS: And this is from the story "Million Dollar Baby," right after he has
given the young woman boxer a very large shot of Adrenalin to kill her, as she
begged him to do. And the sentence is, `With shoes in his hand, but without
his soul, he moved silently down the rear stairs and was gone, his eyes as dry
as a burning leaf.' And I thought the...

Mr. HAGGIS: Beautiful line.

GROSS: I thought the way you portrayed it in the movie, you knew that he felt
he had lost his soul, that he was lost, that he had become a lost soul. Now
while I have you, the screenwriter, here to ask a question, I would like to
ask you a question about the ending that I realize you might not want to
answer, and that is: What do you think happens to the Clint Eastwood
character when the movie ends? It's kind of ambiguous. He slips away from
his life. We know he's a lost soul. But there's a few options you can kind
of read into what happens after that.

Mr. HAGGIS: I have my own opinion, but the reason I wrote it in such an
ambiguous style was really to let people read what they wanted into the movie.
And, certainly, the narrator, Scrap, says that he hopes that he found a place
where he could live with this, but that's just a hope. And personally, I
think he paid the price that he knew he would pay, that he lost his soul, and
could never find it again. And I think that's only right, because if you do
make a decision like that--I mean, I've had to twice in my life make decisions
that--not as bad as that, but had to do with life and death, and those
decisions haunt you forever.

GROSS: Can you talk about what your decisions were?

Mr. HAGGIS: I had a very, very close friend, Ron Colbert(ph), who--were were
close since we were 15 or 16 years old. And a few years ago, his wife called
me. They were living up in Canada. And something had happened and he was
hospitalized, in intensive care. And I flew up to be with them; by the time I
got there, it was obvious that he was beyond the doctors' help and there was
nothing that she or I or the family could do. And I had to help make the
decision whether to pull the plug. And it was obviously the best thing for
him--he was not coming back--and the best thing for the family, but that
decision, or being part of that decision, has haunted me to this day. So you
do not escape things like this without consequences. And it was very
important to me to say that in this movie. This wasn't a light decision on
his part and further--it was a terrible decision, and he had to pay the price,
but he did it out of love.

GROSS: Can I ask you--you say how tormented you were by helping the family
make that decision to pull the plug, and I understand the torment, but, you
know, there is the argument on the other side that your friend's soul might
have been tormented, being kept alive on life support when his body was ready
to die.

Mr. HAGGIS: That's what we tell ourselves, and we hope that we're right. So
it doesn't make it much easier.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Paul Haggis. He wrote the
screenplay for "Million Dollar Baby" and he has written, directed and
co-produced a new movie called "Crash," which opens in early May.

You actually got your start in television, writing for TV, and I think one of
the first shows you wrote for was "The Love Boat"?

Mr. HAGGIS: (Laughs)

GROSS: Yes?

Mr. HAGGIS: Yeah. Yes, it was. I...

GROSS: So--yeah, go ahead.

Mr. HAGGIS: I was, oh, 24 years old, 25 years old, and going around town with
my then-partner, Michael Moore, and begging to get work from anyplace. And he
had a friend--or his dad had a friend who was producing "The Love Boat," and
they were nice enough to give us an episode or a part of an episode to write.

GROSS: So what was it like for you to write a show whose sensibility was not
your own?

Mr. HAGGIS: Well, I wasn't a very good writer. In fact, I made a very, very
good living being a bad writer for many, many years in Hollywood. So it
didn't really bother me. I liked being a part of Hollywood and writing for
it. I only--I guess it was in my mid-30s when I was working on
"thirtysomething" that I first discovered that I should actually write about
something. That was Marshall Herskovitz and Ed Zwick--sort of questioned--I'd
turned a script in to them and they said, `Really interesting work, Paul.
What's it about?' I said, `What do you mean?' `Well, how's it relate to your
life?' And I thought, `Wow. It should do that?' And so from that point on,
I started to write about things that meant something to me, or at least a
little, and to look inside and say, you know, `What are my prejudices? What
are my fears? Or what are the things that trouble me or make me angry?' And
that slowly worked its way into my work.

GROSS: Well, you've written a lot of crime stories over the years. Is that
something that you found when you looked into your soul?

Mr. HAGGIS: Yeah, I was a criminal pretty early on. Thank God I didn't get
caught. But--no. I think we all have these tendencies within us that, if
left unchecked, we could go this way or that. And so it's pretty easy to put
yourself in the shoes of a villain or someone whose intentions are not what,
you know, yours are. And I think that's the real key to writing, is being
able to look at a character without judging them and to really--to inspect
someone whose views are so different from yours and just anathema to what you
believe, and say to yourself, `How is that person right? How is that person's
point of view the only point of view that is right for that person?' And that
can take you into some pretty dark and troubling waters sometimes, but you get
to write some great characters.

GROSS: Well, Paul Haggis, thank you so much for talking with us.

Mr. HAGGIS: Oh, thank you for having me.

GROSS: Paul Haggis wrote the screenplay for "Million Dollar Baby." He wrote
and directed the new film "Crash," which opens in May. By the way, our
interview was recorded last week before the Terri Schiavo story dominated the
headlines.

Coming up, David Bianculli reviews the NBC version of the hit BBC sitcom "The
Office." This is FRESH AIR.

* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *

Review: New NBC show "The Office"
TERRY GROSS, host:

The British comedy "The Office," a mock documentary series starring Ricky
Gervais as the pompous and clueless middle-management boss at a paper-supply
company, has been remade by NBC for an American audience. It starts tonight.
TV critic David Bianculli has this review.

DAVID BIANCULLI (Television Critic): You've had plenty of chances by now to
see the original BBC version of "The Office," which was comprised of 12
episodes and one farewell special. On cable, BBC America has shown it many
times and, in fact, is showing it again the next two weekends. And if you
don't have cable, but do have a DVD player, the original "Office" is available
as a complete box set.

It's brilliant television. Ricky Gervais and Stephen Merchant wrote it, and
Gervais starred in it as David Brent, a guy who thinks he's a lot more witty
and lovable and intelligent than he is. But at heart, he's a decent enough
guy, and no matter how many inappropriate things he says or how many
embarrassing moments he has to endure, you end up feeling sorry for him and
even liking him. In the British version of "The Office," that was the key.

To Americanize it, Greg Daniels from "King of the Hill" and the show's other
writer-producers have taken the characters from "The Office," renamed them and
used the pilot script as a springboard. After the premiere episode, which
closely resembles the British pilot, NBC's "The Office" is on its own,
providing its own scripts and ideas. As fights for independence from England
go, it hardly ranks up there with the American Revolution.

Steve Carell from "The Daily Show" with Jon Stewart on Comedy Central stars in
the NBC version as Michael Scott. Like all other characters, he's been
renamed in the move across the Atlantic. But where Ricky Gervais let the
boss's insecurity show through, Steve Carell is all noise and stupidity. He's
like a sketch-comedy character, not a real person; not just foolish, but a
fool.

I don't even think it's fair to compare the pilot episode to the original.
That's too mean and too easy. But here's a scene from next week's second
episode, the first one written by Americans, for Americans. Guest star Larry
Wilmore plays a consultant sent to the office to conduct a seminar on
racial diversity. The staff is gathered in a conference room, and Carell's
Michael Scott is standing next to the consultant, trying to lead the session
he's supposed to be attending.

(Soundbite of NBC's "The Office")

Mr. LARRY WILMORE: (As Consultant) At Diversity Today, our philosophy is
about honesty and positive expectations. We believe that 99 percent of the
problems in the workplace arise simply out of ignorance.

Mr. STEVE CARELL: (As Michael Scott) You know what? This is a color-free
zone here. Stanley, I don't look at you as another race.

Mr. WILMORE: See, this is what I'm talking about. We don't have to pretend
that we're color-blind.

Mr. CARELL: Exactly.

Mr. WILMORE: That's fighting...

Mr. CARELL: We're not color-blind.

Mr. WILMORE: ...ignorance with more ignorance.

Mr. CARELL: We--more--and tolerance.

Mr. WILMORE: No, with more ignorance.

Mr. CARELL: Ignorance.

Mr. WILMORE: Right. Exactly. Instead, we need to celebrate our diversity,
OK?

Mr. CARELL: Let's celebrate.

Mr. WILMORE: Right. OK.

Mr. CARELL: Celebrate good times. Come on!

Mr. WILMORE: No...

Mr. CARELL: Let's celebrate diversity, right?

Mr. WILMORE: Yes, exactly. Now here's what we're going to do. I've noticed
that...

Mr. CARELL: You know what? Here's what we're going to do. Why don't we go
around and everybody--everybody--say a race that you are attracted to
sexually. I will go last. (Claps hands) Go!

Unidentified Man: I have two.

Mr. CARELL: Nice.

Unidentified Man: White and Indian.

Mr. WILMORE: Actually, I'd prefer not to start that way. Michael, I would
love to have your permission to run this session. Can I have your permission?

Mr. CARELL: Yeeeesss.

Mr. WILMORE: Thank you very much. And it would also help me if you were
seated.

Mr. CARELL: OK.

Mr. WILMORE: Thank you.

BIANCULLI: Generally, I prefer comedies that don't have laugh tracks, but I
also prefer comedies that have laughs. And this "Office" doesn't. For the
most part, its tone, like its central character, is too loud and too forced.
There are glimpses, though, of what the British "Office" accomplished so well.
In the original, there was a touching ongoing story line about the unrequited
love of a quiet paper salesman, Tim, played by Martin Freeman, for an equally
low-key receptionist named Dawn, played by Lucy Davis. For NBC's "The
Office," these characters are named Jim and Pam and are played by John
Krasinski and Jenna Fischer. They hit the right notes, and their scenes
together are the only times when this new "Office" works.

And Carell isn't the only one who falls flat. Rainn Wilson as the paranoid
office lackey played so superbly in the original by Mackenzie Crook,
underplays his role as much as Carell overplays his.

There may be one other reason for the NBC show's imminent failure, a very
simple one: Even though only a few million people have seen the British
version of "The Office" on cable or DVD, it has been seen, and comparisons are
not only inevitable, but devastating. The American TV shows that were based
on British programs and became hits here are a short list that includes "All
in the Family," "Sanford and Son," "Three's Company," "Who Wants to Be a
Millionaire?" and "American Idol." But they all had one thing in common:
Viewers in this country hadn't seen the originals beforehand.

Now think of how many Americanized versions of British shows have died a very
quick death here; shows like NBC's "Coupling" last season, and "Cracker" and
"Cold Feet" and, over the years, two absolutely horrendous versions of "Fawlty
Towers," one starring John Larroquette, the other starring--honest--Bea
Arthur. Add NBC's "The Office" to that bad list, then avoid it. Watch the
original "Office" this Saturday and next on BBC America, or go out and buy or
rent the DVD. It's worth it. NBC's attempt to open its own "Office" isn't.

GROSS: David Bianculli is TV critic for the New York Daily News.

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.