Mesmerizing Egyptian Art.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: NOVEMBER 24, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 112401np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: "Back To My Roots": An Interview With Bobby Womack
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

My guest is soul singer Bobby Womack. He started singing gospel in the '50s with his brothers. After they were discovered by Sam Cooke, they started recording soul music under the name The Valentinos. One of their records, "It's All Over Now," co-written by Bobby Womack, was covered by The Rolling Stones.

Womack went on to a solo recording career and also had some success as a songwriter. He wrote several songs for Wilson Pickett, including "I'm a Midnight Mover" and "I'm in Love." He wrote and sang the title song for the '70s action film "Across 110th Street." The song was more recently used by Quentin Tarantino in his film "Jackie Brown."

Bobby Womack has a new CD called "Back to My Roots," on which he returns to his gospel roots.

Let's start with a track from it, a song by Sam Cooke called "Stand By Me."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "STAND BY ME," BOBBY WOMACK)

GROSS: That's Bobby Womack from his new CD, "Back to My Roots," a CD of gospel music.

Bobby Womack, welcome to FRESH AIR. It's a pleasure to have you here.

BOBBY WOMACK, "BACK TO MY ROOTS": It's a pleasure to be here.

GROSS: Tell me why you're recording gospel again. I think this is the first time since the very start of your career.

WOMACK: It's because I think most artists and most people in general forget their roots. And if you don't have a root, you don't know where you started, you don't know where you're going, you don't know where you've been, you know. So you start all over again.

And I found myself getting lost in the shuffle and moving at such a pace, being in this so-called show biz, you know, that you lose your direction. And you got to stand for something, or you'll fall for anything.

And so I went back to my roots. I always said, I want to go back to when I sung and it was innocent. They used to pay us out of a frying pan. It wasn't about much money you made, how many hits you had. It didn't matter. People was trying to survive, and they -- we showed them that we was disciples for God. And we traveled all over the world with people like Soulsters (ph). Sam was a Soulsters, Fire Blind Boys, which is my favorite, and Swan Silvertones, Caravans, groups like Staple Singer.

And we all traveled together, and we were paid on the road when Kurt Franklin (ph) was getting diapers.

GROSS: The song that we just heard you sing was written by Sam Cooke, who basically discovered you and your brothers and was the first to record you and give you a big break.

Before we talk about that, tell me about the first time you heard him sing in church. And I think this was in the early 1950s.

WOMACK: Yes, that was in the early 1950s. He had just joined the Soulsters. And it was strange, because the guy that was this lead singer of the Soulsters, R.H. Harris, was -- Sam idolized and worshipped the ground he walked on. And that's what he was trying to sing like. So R.H. Harris started to give him voice lessons and work with him.

But R.H. Harris was like a Rudolph Valentino. He had a woman in every city. And in every city he also had kids. So it got to a point for child support, he couldn't perform anywhere, because they would pick him up and take him off the stage.

So that was really weird. So he says, "I can't go out any more." I don't know why he was able to stay in Chicago. Would it be because he didn't have no kids there? But anyway, he got Sam. Sam was 16, 17. And he said, "This guy's got to replace me, because I'm hurting the group." And Sam came in and took over.

He took over so fast that it seemed like the people forgot about Harris, and Sam came to Cleveland to perform with the Soulsters. And we were trying to get our break. In other words, if we could open up for the Soulsters, at that time, it was like opening up for the Rolling Stones.

And a lot of (ph) the old in the group says, "Oh, no, let them come back when they grow up. We're professionals. And you guys, y'all are nice, that's cute, but this ain't no place for kids." (inaudible), say, "What do you mean, no place for kids?" He said, "It's going to be a place to date (ph). And not only that, I want your mom to find the biggest purse (ph) she (inaudible)," and Wayne's saying to me, "I'll take up her (inaudible)."

And I never forgot that. And...

GROSS: You -- you -- you -- you once said that the first time you saw him perform in church, it's like he's fixing his hair in the middle of a concert, and...

WOMACK: Oh, yes, he would (inaudible)...

GROSS: ... and women are going crazy.

WOMACK: ... he would sing, (singing) "Wonderful, God is so wonderful." And he would just -- I said, Look at this guy. Women are going crazy. It was like a rock and roll show. So the older people didn't like it, and they say, We don't think that they should play with God like this. I said, "Look, the Bible say, Make a joyful noise. You don't have to be under some spell to shout or cry and jump up and down. I think it's great to see kids dancing off records, whatever. If they're dancing, they're respecting God, and they're showing Him their love.

So that's what it's all about. So the gospel is the truth, you just have to broaden the scope of it, and they can go as far as you let it go.

GROSS: Well, Sam Cooke not only let you sing when he performed, he later signed you and your brothers to his recording label and produced you for singing gospel, but then singing rhythm and blues. Now, Sam Cooke, I think, was an inspiration to a lot of gospel singers, because he crossed over from gospel to pop and made it really big. So...

WOMACK: And everybody was afraid to do that, even Sam was afraid to do it.

GROSS: How'd you feel about making that transition?

WOMACK: I was scared to death, because everybody was constantly saying, Sam's not going to have any good luck, because he sold hisself out to the devil. And he was singing for God, now he's worshipping the devil.

So that's the way we were taught, and I was watching Sam. When is something going to happen to him? You know. And as soon as he had a car wreck, that was a warning. Then something else happened. They would say, God's punishing him. And I said, I don't know that kind of God. Those things just happen.

And tragically, I mean, sorrily, he did leave here with a death (ph) you would never expect. For today, I mean, you could be walking down the street and somebody shoot you for snoring or talking to yourself, you know. So it's crazy, but it was -- Then, that was like Sam wasn't a violent kind of person, and he died of a bullet -- being shot by a woman.

GROSS: Your father sang gospel. He sang with a group called Voices of Love. How did he feel when you and your brothers started recording rhythm and blues?

WOMACK: He was very, very hurt. It broke his spirit. I remember, he was so hurt that he told us, he said, "All of you guys got to leave this house. You got to get out. You're not going sing it in here." So he put us out. We all -- I quit school when I was about 16. And Harry was 14, and he quit. Cecil was 13, and he quit. My other two brothers had finished.

And so we told Sam, "He put us out." He said, "Where are you at?" I said, "We're standing on the corner." And he said, "Oh, God, man, I don't want to cause that kind of problem."

But he knew, because his father was a preacher, he said, "I know what you're going through." He said, "I just hate this responsibility." He said, "Do you all know how to drive?" I said, "I got a temporary license. And my oldest brother got a license." And he said, "OK, I'm going to send you some money to buy a car, and you all get on Route 66 and do not get off Route 66 until you get to California."

GROSS: Is that what you did?

WOMACK: I was supposed to go buy a new Chevy station wagon. But all of the hustlers and the pimps and the fast (ph) street people had the big Cadillacs. I said, I can't buy no Cadillac with this car and go to California too. So I told my brothers, "Instead of getting a new car, let's get this old Cadillac. It looks good."

GROSS: (laughs)

WOMACK: So they say, "Come on, Pop, let's do what he asked us." I said, "No, let's get this Caddy." (inaudible), I said, "The Cadillac only cost $600. We got $2,700," you know. So they said OK. So we bought this Cadillac. And the first thing I went to do is drive back on the school grounds and talk to my history teacher, who always told me I would be nothing.

He'd say, "You're not going to be nothing but a janitor. You always talking about you all going (inaudible)," we used to go sing, and my father would drop us out the next morning, while (ph) we come from Florida. He'd drop us out right in front of the school, and we already hour late, and we're running, trying together et in the school.

And the kids were laughing, but he would always make a joke, "Womack, go to the board. Who invented the cotton gin?" or some question. Like, I'm looking for some girl to tell me, help me, please, you know. I'd write it 5,000 times. And he was always -- so this guy, his name was Mr. Washington, I said, I got to drive back before I go anywhere. I drove on the school grounds and blow my horn, and everybody came running to the window. "It's Womack!"

I said, "Yeah, that's where I got my start. Got me a Caddy." You know. So he kept saying to the kids, "Get away from the window." And the strangest thing happened. The car cut off and would not start. And man, I'm praying to God, Jesus, please let this car start. I just want to get off the school grounds.

He said, "I'm going to call the police if you don't move the car." And it finally cranked up, and I got it home. We left that night going to -- on our way to California. My mother was crying, she was worried. She packed us a big lunch. My father probably was sorry that he had pushed it to that point. But he was a very stubborn man. He wasn't the kind of guy to give in.

So he says -- he didn't say anything. And we took off driving.

A week later, they were still looking for us.

GROSS: Where'd you end up?

WOMACK: (inaudible). Well, we went to hospital, because we were overtaken by gas fumes.

GROSS: Oh, gosh!

WOMACK: It started to rain, we (inaudible) the windshield wipers. They went straight off the car. And we kept it in the car about -- seemed like every hour, we had to put gas in the car, gas (inaudible) -- the tank had two big (inaudible) hose in it. All the tires blew out, every last one.

It was really crazy. So when we got to Hollywood, California, we were pushing the car down Hollywood Boulevard.

GROSS: Well, so you finally made it to Hollywood in this really bum car that you spent your money on.

WOMACK: Yes, this bum (inaudible).

GROSS: And hooked up with Sam Cooke. Now, before we hear something that you recorded with your brothers, produced by Sam Cooke, I want to just backtrack a second and play something that you recorded with your father, since we were talking about him and his reaction to your crossover.

WOMACK: I hope you play the song I think you going to play.

GROSS: "Tarnished Rings" from 1976.

WOMACK: Yes, (inaudible).

GROSS: This is a great recording.

WOMACK: Great song...

GROSS: And...

WOMACK: ... and I heard his voice on the day I (ph) -- it scared me to death, because I drive his car right now.

GROSS: Oh, really?

WOMACK: That's my favorite automobile. It's 1974 Buick, just like it was when he drove it off to Florida. And that was the car I purchased for him that he said, "If you ever do anything and you ever make it out there," he said he could buy me a deuce and a quarter. So I said, "Deuce and a quarter?" I didn't know what a deuce and a quarter was. I said, "Yes, I'll get that for you, Pop." But when I did make the -- my first piece of money, I said, I'm going to get my father that deuce and a quarter. And I asked somebody what is -- what's a deuce and a quarter?

They say, "You must be from back East." Say, "That's a Buick." I said, "Is that what he wanted, a Buick and not a Cadillac?" No, he wants the Buick. So he had that Buick, and he would never let me trade it in. So when he passed away, I restored the car to its original -- just the way it was originally. And I drive it all the time. It feels like, when I start it up, he starts up.

GROSS: Right. When did...

WOMACK: And so the other day...

GROSS: ... he die?

WOMACK: ... that song, I forgot I had a CD put in it, and that song just came on, (singing) Tarnished rings -- Scared me to death. I thought my father was in the car. I said, Oh, God!

GROSS: Well, let's hear "Tarnished Rings," recorded in 1976. This is my guest, Bobby Womack, with his father, Friendly Womack Sr.

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "TARNISHED RINGS," FRIENDLY WOMACK SR., BOBBY WOMACK)

GROSS: That's Bobby Womack and his father, Friendly Womack Sr., recorded in 1976.

Let's pick up where Sam Cooke had signed you and your brothers, and after recording a few gospel sides, you started to do rhythm and blues.

You were, you know, performing, I think, on stage with people like Sam Cooke. I think The Valentinos opened for James Brown, didn't you?

WOMACK: Yes, we opened for James Brown. We opened for Solomon Burt (ph). We opened for The Falcons, who had Wilson Pickett as their lead singer at that time.

GROSS: Now, this -- this...

WOMACK: And Eddie Floyd.

GROSS: ... this must have been something different for you than singing in the church.

WOMACK: Well, it was different because the women could come in minidresses and whatever, and you didn't have a pretty woman backstage in church, you know, they were -- they just caught the service, then they went home.

GROSS: Did -- did you -- did you go wild?

WOMACK: But then I could take them home.

GROSS: Right.

WOMACK: (inaudible) go, Wow. They called me Wow Billy Heeka (ph).

Yes, but I'll tell you, I -- and something (inaudible) when you first get (inaudible), I mean, you're basically saying 70 percent of the audience is women. But after being in it for 10 years, you adjust, and you find out, this is going to be happening every night, you know. You got to get used to it.

GROSS: My guest is Bobby Womack. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: My guest is Bobby Womack. His latest CD, "Back to My Roots," is a return to gospel music.

I'd like to play what's probably the best-known song from the early part of your career. This is a song you co-wrote. It's called, "It's All Over Now," which was covered by the Rolling Stones after you recorded it with your brothers.

WOMACK: They just did a commercial on that again.

GROSS: Well, tell me a little bit about writing the song. Do you remember writing it?

WOMACK: I remember I had an uncle. His name was Uncle West. That was my father's youngest brother. And he was in love with this woman named Betty Jo. But Betty Jo was going to church with him and Dad all the time. And she was a pretty lady. And one day she just said, "Enough is enough," and she started going to night clubs and hanging out. And she used to wear these long dresses. And she took a dress up to past her knees.

Uncle West could not control it. So every weekend, he didn't know where she was. Nobody knew where she was. They knew she was out having a good time. And she come in. But he'd be talking about, "I'm leaving Betty. This is -- no, it's all over now. It's all -- I swear it's all over now."

Soon as Betty Jo came in the house, (inaudible), he -- she come in there, and she say, "How you doing, honey?" (inaudible), "No, no, you got to get -- I got your bags packed." And she'd say, "Come here a minute." She'd take him in the other room. We never understood what happened, but he go in that room, he never came out. I didn't know if they were dead. But the next morning he'd be unpacking her bags, this Uncle West. You fell for it.

So I said, "Next week when she go out this week, don't go in the room, (inaudible) fight."

GROSS: (laughs)

WOMACK: "Hold onto the couch. We'll help you." He kept saying, "You don't understand." I say, "No, no, no, no, no, no, I understand, just don't go in that room."

So the same thing applied again the next week. And she'd say, "Come here, West." And so he'd be coming, "No, it's all over now." So that's how the song came about. (singing) But I used to love her, but it's all over now.

And I didn't know about, because I (inaudible) young to fall in love. I was 15 when I wrote the song. But just thinking about it, that's where the song came from.

GROSS: Well, let's hear "It's All Over Now," recorded by The Valentinos, which is the Womack brothers.

WOMACK: The Womack brothers.

GROSS: My guest, Bobby Womack...

WOMACK: (inaudible) call us in church, "The Womack boys."

GROSS: My guest, Bobby Womack, is singing lead on this 1964 recording.

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "IT'S ALL OVER NOW," THE VALENTINOS)

GROSS: That's Bobby Womack and his brothers, who were known then as The Valentinos, recorded in 1964.

So what was your reaction when you found out that the Rolling Stones wanted to record your song?

WOMACK: I was very upset.

GROSS: Why were you upset?

WOMACK: It's because, as far as I can remember, that every time a black artist came out with a song, you know, it was -- segregation was everywhere, it was in music and everything. So they would say, We can't let that record be played on pop stations, which were white stations. So we would get a Pat Boone or somebody to take the same song and sing it, which -- the white audience never knew it was sung by a black artist. Same with the Elvis Presley songs. You know, it was written by a lot of black artists, and sung by most black artists, that they was hits on the black side of town.

On the white side of town, it was a whole different thing. So when they came -- when Sam came to me and said, "Bobby, it's a group called the Rolling Stones," and I say, "Yeah, that's nice, hope they keep rolling." He said, "No, what I'm trying to tell you," he said, "they like your song and they want to sing your song. They want to record it."

I said, "Man, let them get their own song. I don't want them to sing my song." And he said, "You don't understand, they going to be huge." He said, "But the Rolling Stones coming whether you like it or not." And he said, "Plus, I own the publishing." He said, "I'm trying to tell you that this is going to be a career move for you."

I said, "Yes, but this is our first break, (inaudible)... "

GROSS: Did -- did you like their version of it?

WOMACK: Well, I didn't like their version because I can sing Mick Jagger (inaudible), (inaudible). You know, but when I saw that first royalty check, I liked their version.

GROSS: Right.

WOMACK: Much. I said, Good God Almighty!

GROSS: Now, the...

WOMACK: I said, Man, I could go back and buy Cleveland.

GROSS: Let -- let me ask you about...

WOMACK: So I've been chasing them for the past 30 years, saying, Just do one more song, you all do one more song, and then I'll retire (inaudible). You started us to writing. Because Andrew Odum (ph) says, "Bobby, when you put that song, I tell him, I say, if you want to be The Beatles, you can't keep taking songs from other people. You got to start writing your own songs." They said, "We can't write." He says, "Yes, you can, you can write."

And he was the sixth Stone, really.

GROSS: Bobby Womack. He'll be back in the second half of the show. His latest CD is called "Back to My Roots," and that's a return to gospel music.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, SONG, BOBBY WOMACK)

(BREAK)

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, SONG, BOBBY WOMACK)

GROSS: Coming up, we listen to and talk about Bobby Womack's songs that were covered by other performers. Also, a review of two exhibits of Egyptian art.

(BREAK)

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross, back with soul singer Bobby Womack.

When we left off, we were talking about cover versions of his records.

(audio interrupt) ... in The Valentinos era, and this was "Looking for a Love." And...

WOMACK: Jay Galsbery (ph) covered that.

GROSS: Yes, they covered that one, had a big hit. Now, you've recorded this...

WOMACK: I'm going to write a song called "Cover Me."

GROSS: (laughs) You recorded this twice in your career, once in the '60s with your brothers, and once in 1974, solo. And because I'm a swell person, I'm going to ask you to decide which you'd rather hear.

WOMACK: I'd like to hear the version with The Valentinos, because I actually was just copying them. I learned to copy people too. I was copying my brothers, right. They -- I was covering them.

GROSS: Yes, covering your own song.

WOMACK: Yes. (laughs)

GROSS: OK, so this is Bobby Womack with his brothers as The Valentinos, "Looking for a Love."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "LOOKING FOR A LOVE," THE VALENTINOS)

GROSS: Now, that session was produced for Sam Cooke's record label. Sam Cooke was killed, shot and killed in 1964, and I know that changed your life in every way. I mean, he was your close friend, your close musical associate. And then you became -- you and -- became part of his family, in a way...

WOMACK: Yes, I married Sam's wife. Lot of people -- I mean, I think I must have invented the tabloids (ph), because, I mean, they ate me alive. They used to call me "the boy that married Sam Cooke's wife." And I was saying, I got to cut some good records now, because I want my name back, Bobby Womack. (inaudible) I could take that is through song.

You know, they was trying to compare me with Sam, and I wasn't Sam. And I still say today, I'm 55, I was 19 when I married her, that I married her because I saw a move going down where it was separation between the two. Sam played around a lot. They -- people talked and says, Don't let her know the business, don't let her know anything about it. She'd be the first one divorced, (inaudible). Now, let's keep the money up here, and this kind of thing.

And I said, "Well... " and he used to always say -- I says, "Sam, why don't you take -- why don't you get a will?" And he said, "A will?" He says, "If I -- Bob," he said, "Bob, if I made up a will, my wife would kill me." He said, "(inaudible), I have to play around, I love women. And that's just my nature, that's just part of me." So he said, "But if I should die," he say, "bury me deep and put two women on each side of me." And he would always laugh.

And I'd say, "I don't find that funny, man. I think... " But here's the guy, I mean, I'm 19, and Sam was about 30, you know. And so he thought it was funny. He'd say, "I tell you what, you be my will. Something happen to me, you take care of my family." And he would joke like that.

But I took him very serious. So as soon as that happened, I started to -- being a detective, walking around saying, Hey, I know where the money's at, I know what bank it's in, I know this is this, and he also owned this. He owned that? What is the publishing? And I told them the publishing. So (inaudible)...

GROSS: So, you, you're saying you didn't feel like you were betraying him in any way.

WOMACK: No, I wasn't betraying him, I was -- and my man, I was doing just what he would have done if he was here. And I'd say, I will make sure that she's in a position -- I told her, I said, "I don't love you." She said -- she was the one that said -- it was like "The Graduate." She say, "Marry me." I didn't know her like that, but I knew how he felt about (inaudible) regardless what a man do, you know, I mean, he would die a thousand times before he felt that came out. But he couldn't protect himself, because he got killed.

And I said, It's all over the headlines, and they put it in the worst way.

GROSS: Now, you were also really well known as a session guitarist in the '60s and '70s, and I want to get to an example of your session work and a very kind of famous wah-wah guitar line that you played for Sly and the Family Stone's recording "Family Affair." Where did you learn to play wah-wah guitar?

WOMACK: Well, I just -- I play upside down. I'm a left-handed guitar player. My father was a guitar player, and I learned how to play, I taught myself, and I don't want to make it real short, I'm not going to deviate, (inaudible) long time, you want to edit me, that's it.

GROSS: The end. (laughs)

WOMACK: That's the end. That's a good one, (inaudible).

GROSS: Now, I know you knew Jimi Hendrix. Did he teach you anything guitar-wise?

WOMACK: No, because we both had two different styles, (inaudible) he was a left-handed guitar player too. We -- Jimi was a very gentle guy, very gentle, and wanted to help everybody, was easy -- I mean, Jimi would walk around a roach. Now, normally, you see a roach crawling, you just step on it. You know, he was just a nice guy. And Jimi played different. He played -- he could play the way I played, but he also had his style. His style was hard-driving, and he used to stand up to the...

I remember when he used to set his little guitar on fire he had bought at Sears and Roebucks. And then he would jump on it with a blanket and put it out. By the end of the week, he'd done that to the guitar, it looked like it had been (inaudible) -- somebody tried to barbecue it. And he say, "One day... " He say, "One day, I'm going to have me a line of guitars." He say, "I just get so -- I get so (inaudible) climax, I want to climax so much, I just want (inaudible) guitar (inaudible) want to cut it and burn it. And then after I get through burning it, break it up, bust it all over the stage and walk off."

GROSS: Did -- did you think he was crazy doing that to his guitar?

WOMACK: Well, because I been in show business, I just figured, he's just come from another angle.

GROSS: Right.

WOMACK: I thought he was different. I said, Well, he's weird. I said, I would never put my -- set no master (ph) my guitar.

GROSS: Well, let -- let -- let's hear (inaudible)...

WOMACK: But now he had so many guitars, he finally did work it out where he could just burn them every night.

GROSS: Well, let's hear you on guitar, wah-wah guitar, on this recording of Sly and the Family Stone's "Family Affair."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "FAMILY AFFAIR," SLY AND THE FAMILY STONE, BOBBY WOMACK)

GROSS: That was Bobby Womack on guitar. Now, tell me, you know, wah-wah guitar ended up sounding so dated after a while, like -- was there a -- was there a time when you said, OK, it's over for this style of playing, I'm not going to do it any more?

WOMACK: The guy that had the name for wah-wah guitar was a guy whose name was Wah-Wah, and he played wah-wah on everything. I just played wah-wah on that song, because I was trying to create something (inaudible), said, Hey, Sly's never used a wah-wah. I'm going to put the wah-wah on it. And we was in the studio, and we was just, like, hanging out. And it came out that way.

But I didn't play wah-wah on everything. I didn't even like it. I liked it on that song, because it just sort of fit with the grace notes that he was playing on keyboards.

GROSS: Well, it certainly adds to how memorable the song is.

WOMACK: But during those days, Wah-Wah played on all the Temptations stuff. His name was Wah-Wah Watson, and he was the wah-wah king. And I say, One day, they going to not need your pedals, they're going to be sick of that wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah-wah. And he used to laugh, and sure today gain (ph).

GROSS: My guest is Bobby Womack. We'll talk more after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

GROSS: My guest is Bobby Womack.

Now, I want to move on to another of your many great records. And this is "Across 110th Street," which you wrote as the theme for the movie of the same name, which starred Anthony Quinn and Yaphet Kotto. And this was one of, like, the great action films of the early '70s.

How much of the movie had you seen before you had to write the theme song for it?

WOMACK: I saw the movie all the way through one time.

GROSS: Did you like it?

WOMACK: I loved the movie, but I felt that the company really didn't want to let me do the -- and I was (inaudible) going to it, and never (ph) the next day. They said, "You got to have the score done in two weeks." You know, and that's -- but I couldn't -- but what they didn't know is that that whole story was about something I lived all my life, the ghetto. So I said, I could write this song and just keep elaborating on it, do other songs, but I'd never sing (ph) in a movie again (ph), because everybody told me, they said, They should have given you TV, edit a version down so you could look at it, and you could set the song tones to...

You know, I didn't get a chance to do that. And plus, when you're touring and hitting one-nighters every night, I was surprised that I came out with what I did. And I had to record it, all this in two weeks. I went to muscle (ph) shows and cut everything and got to take back (ph). And the guy say, "That's incredible, boy, if we would have given him the time that he needed, no telling what would happen." I say, "Probably the same thing."

GROSS: No, I'm not sure it would have gotten better than this.

WOMACK: No, I don't think it would have gotten better. Because I think you -- I'm better when I'm under pressure.

GROSS: Let's hear your recording of "Across 110th Street."

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "ACROSS 110th STREET," BOBBY WOMACK)

GROSS: That's Bobby Womack's theme from "Across 110th Street." You must have been pleased when Quentin Tarantino used this in "Jackie Brown" to open the film.

WOMACK: Yes, because, you know, I used to date Pam Grier.

GROSS: Oh, wow.

WOMACK: That was Rosie Grier's, ex-Rams, that's his niece. And so he introduced me to her after me and Barbara divorced, and he says, "Hey, man, she's a beautiful girl," and she was saying, "I want to be a star." And she was real wild. But she was real positive. I mean, she would get anywhere, and anything she wanted to do, Pam (inaudible) find a way.

So I had her singing on "Across 110th Street." Now, the most incredible story about that is that about seven years ago, we did an interview, we hadn't seen each other in years, in New York. And we were doing it, and she asked me what was I doing, and I was telling her, "Well, you know, just working, doing the same old thing, things slowed down quite a bit, but, you know, something new happen, it always do."

And her thing had slowed down from doing her blaxploitation movie thing. But if I could have told her then, A couple of years from now, you're going to be starring over people like -- she would have thought I was crazy.

And that song would bring us both back. And at the end, I snuck in the movie to see it, and I was, like, just knocked out. I couldn't even -- it was standing room, was nowhere to sit. I sat in the floor.

And so I was listening. At the end, she walked away and got in a car that was the same car I drove when we dated each other 20-some years ago.

GROSS: You mean, the same model, or...

WOMACK: Same car. Same model.

GROSS: ... the same identical car? Oh, OK.

WOMACK: Same model.

GROSS: Wow.

WOMACK: Identical to the car. And she drove away with all the money, singing, "Across 110th Street." And I said, Isn't that incredible? There was tears in my eyes. And then I start thinking, Boy, I sure wish I could be in that car with her, she got all that money. (inaudible).

GROSS: (laughs)

WOMACK: So the only thing, I wasn't in the car. So she called me, and she caught me at a show, and she told me, she said, "Bobby, they want you to do -- they're going to do a sequel and they want you in the movie." And I said, "Really?" And she say, "Yes." So I'm looking forward to it.

GROSS: Oh, so there's really a sequel in the works?

WOMACK: Yes.

GROSS: Is Quentin Tarantino doing it?

WOMACK: Yes, he's doing it. And he wants me to have a spot, like a -- (inaudible) -- everything goes down in the city, happens around this club, whether it be drug or politics or whatever, happens at this club. And I'm in there singing all of my songs all the time, records and old records.

GROSS: Oh, what (inaudible).

WOMACK: And turning people on. And they come and ask me, Did so-and-so -- Yes, the dope man just left. And I knew everything, I knew everything. And (inaudible), he said, "I just think it'd be funny to have... " Because he saw -- I got a commercial out, and he saw this commercial. And I'd never done a commercial, ever. So it was just funny that they gave me the part. And it was really real.

So they taped it just like it was, and they say, "Bobby, the commercial's incredible," and I said, "Yes, but I'm not an actor." He say, "Would you rather be a natural or would you rather go to school to act?" He say, "I think you're a natural." So I took it as a compliment.

GROSS: Well, Bobby Womack, now that we've heard several of the many songs that you've written over the years, I thought we could listen to your cover of a very famous song. And I think I'll surprise our listeners with what it is.

(AUDIO CLIP, EXCERPT, "I LEFT MY HEART IN SAN FRANCISCO," BOBBY WOMACK)

GROSS: What inspired you to record, "I Left My Heart in San Francisco"?

WOMACK: Well, I had did, (singing) Fly me to the moon -- But I did it up-tempo, and when I met Tony Bennett, I was teasing him about it, I say, "Who wants to fly slow?" I said, (singing like Tony Bennett), Fly me to the moon and let me play among the stars." I said, but -- (singing) Fly, dat-dah-dah, da-dee-dee-de. So it was the same thing, it was taking songs way before disco ever came in, and given them what you call a face lift.

I took "Fly... " I took "San Francisco," "I Left My Heart in San Francisco," and took it up-tempo.

GROSS: And what did Tony Bennett think of your recording? Did he hear it?

WOMACK: He loved it. I ran into him in the theater, and I had been talking all this talk in papers (ph), but I didn't know him. So I was trying to ease out of the theater for the -- And he said, (inaudible), "There go the guy that said (ph) your song." And he say, "Hey, Bobby, come here a minute." And I froze, came back. "Hey, oh, man, I didn't see you." He said, "I loved what you did with the song, I think it's fantastic." And I felt really good. I said, "Oh, I'm glad you really like it, Mr. Bennett." And that was it.

GROSS: Well, I'm really glad that you made this album of gospel songs, and I really want to thank you for joining us. It's really been fun, I really (inaudible).

WOMACK: And Terry, I must say, you know, next time I'm in Philly, I want you to be my special guest. I really do, I want you to come up and just watch me perform and see -- and when I come off the stage, I want you to tell me, "Bobby, you're slowing down, maybe you need to (inaudible)."

GROSS: (laughs)

WOMACK: Or tell me, "Bobby, you're a monster. Bobby, you still got it. Bobby, you're stronger than you've ever been." Because I know you'll tell me the truth.

GROSS: That's right.

WOMACK: I already know this. (inaudible) Terry, man, if you thinking you look good, she say, "Womack, you don't look too hot now. (inaudible), but I mean, I love you, but you don't look good."

Take care of yourself, baby, (inaudible).

GROSS: Oh, you too.

Bobby Womack's latest CD is called "Back to My Roots." It's a return to gospel music.

Coming up, two exhibitions of Egyptian art. This is FRESH AIR.

(BREAK)

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Bobby Womack
High: Soul singer Bobby Womack's R&B and pop hits include "It'a All Over Now," "Lookin' For A Love" and "That's The Way I Feel About Cha." Recently his recording "Across 110th Street" was used in the Quentin Tarantino film "Jackie Brown." Womack began his career singing gospel with his brothers. On his new release, "Back To My Roots," he returns to his gospel origins.
Spec: Entertainment; Music Industry; Bobby Womack; "Back To My Roots"

Please note, this is not the final feed of record

Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: "Back To My Roots": An Interview With Bobby Womack

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: NOVEMBER 24, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 112402NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Egyptian Art: Reviews of Two Exhibits
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:50

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

GROSS: Our classical music critic, Lloyd Schwartz, is mesmerized by the art of ancient Egypt. Two major exhibits are currently showing at art museums not far from where he lives.

LLOYD SCHWARTZ, MUSIC CRITIC: There may be more great Egyptian art in the northeast corridor of the United States right now than there is any place in the world outside of Egypt itself. There's a stunning show at the Met in New York of Egyptian art in the age of the Pyramids, some 250 works from more than 4,000 years ago, the period of Egypt's greatest artistic flourishing.

And at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts, there's a fascinating exploration of a brief but amazing period of less than two decades from a millennium later, the age of Akhnaten and his wife, Nefertiti, and their mysterious son-in-law, Tutankhamen.

Most striking about both these exhibits is the sense of intimacy. The great monuments of Egypt, the Pyramids, the Sphinx, the temples at Karnak and Luxor and Abu-Simbel, are obviously not going to travel. Two colossal heads of Akhnaten from Cairo in the Boston show weigh several tons. The floors couldn't hold anything heavier.

But these exhibits are also correctives to our assumptions of size and grandeur. They bring the ancient Egyptians down to human scale.

While I was looking at the magnificent red quartzite head of King Djedefre, the successor to Cheops, on loan to the Met from the Louvre, a woman was saying to her husband, "Doesn't his face remind you of Sylvia Martinez?" First I was amused, and then I thought, That's exactly right. So many of these figures are images of real, particular human beings with distinct personalities, not just abstractions.

There's Hemiunu (ph), whom scholars think is the architect of the Great Pyramid, sitting contentedly, his fleshy breasts hanging over a sagging pot belly. Three tiny fragments show the Pharaoh Chephren just about to say something witty and unforgettable. He's alive.

Images of married couples show remarkable tenderness. Wives have their arms around their husband's back or shoulder, as if presenting them to the world. In one statue, the husband reciprocates, smiling, with his arm around his wife's neck and his hand resting on her breast.

We see various professionals at work, a butcher, a potter, woodcutters. You can practically see the branches blowing in the breeze. Sailors, you can practically hear the broad sails whipping in the wind. As well as poignant images of the downtrodden and defeated, starving Bedouins, kneeling captives.

There are four of only 31 surviving reserve (ph) heads, haunting limestone images found at tomb sites -- independent sculptures, not broken off from larger statues. No one knows what these were used for, but the more you look, the more interior they become.

I especially love the animals, not gods in animal form, but everyday goats and dogs, naughty baboons, curious bears, mating antelopes, even a porcupine. There's an enchanting relief of a herder luring some cows across a stream. You can tell it's a stream because one of the cows is licking the surface of the water. The herder is holding a calf in his arms, which is sticking out its tongue to lick it's mother's tongue. The cow is following her baby, and the other cows are following her.

A thousand years later, the Pharaoh Akhnaten became civilization's first monotheist, the king who considered the idea of the sun, the Aten, to be the supreme deity, rather than worshipping a sun god, one of many gods. He moved the seat of power to create a new city we now call Amarna, and for the 17 years of his reign everything changed.

In the Boston exhibit, you see a strange new kind of realism, almost grotesque. Akhnaten, with his broad hips, elongated face, and thick lips is startlingly androgynous. A marvelous bas-relief shows the Akhnaten family sitting at home, the king carefully holding his new baby in his arms and kissing her, the queen resting one lively daughter against her shoulder and dandling another on her knee.

The most famous bust of Nefertiti is too fragile ever to leave its home in Berlin, but there are several other spectacular portrait busts of her. On one face, made of yellow jasper, only the lips are left, but they're the creamiest, most voluptuous movie-star lips you've ever seen.

A child's reed sandal survives. So does an ancient toilet seat.

This period ended abruptly, thanks to young King Tut or his advisers, and instantly the style of Egyptian art reverted to traditional abstraction.

Boston is wallowing in Egyptian fever. A production of "Aida" will be followed by Philip Glass's opera "Akhnaten" and a new "Cleopatra" ballet. The Science Museum is showing one of those wide-screen I-Max films, starring Omar Sharif, with the camera sweeping us down the rapids of the Nile and swooping over the Pyramids.

But the real stars are the ancient objects themselves, pieces that remind us not only how remote and mysterious this civilization was, but also how human.

GROSS: Lloyd Schwartz is classical music editor of "The Boston Phoenix." "The Age of the Pyramids" is at the Metropolitan Museum in New York through January 9. "Pharaohs of the Sun" is at the Boston Museum of Fine Arts through February 6.

FRESH AIR's executive producer is Danny Miller. Our engineer is Audrey Bentham (ph). Our interviews and reviews are produced by Phyllis Meyers (ph), Amy Sallett (ph), Naomi Person, and Joan Toohey Westman (ph), with Monique Nazareth, Anne Marie Baldonado, and Patty Leswing (ph).

I'm Terry Gross.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia, PA
Guest: Lloyd Schwartz
High: Classical music critic Lloyd Schwartz reviews two blockbuster exhibits of Egyptian art: "The Age of the Pyramids," at the Metropolitan Museum in New York, which runs through January 9, and "Pharaohs of the Sun," at Boston's Museum of Fine Arts through February 6.
Spec: Art; Egypt; History

Please note, this is not the final feed of record

Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Egyptian Art: Reviews of Two Exhibits
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.