Leader and bassist of the band Kiss, Gene Simmons.

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Interview: Wayne Kramer discusses the music and radical politics
of his 1960s band, the MC5
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

In the late '60s when a lot of rock bands saw themselves as being in the
vanguard of a cultural or political revolution, the Detroit-based band the MC5
was one of the most radical of them all. The music was loud and often
dissonant. Some lyrics had expletives you couldn't play on the radio, and the
band's politics were on the far left. In their early days, they were managed
by John Sinclair, the head of the White Panther Party, who used to preach
revolution at the MC5's concerts. They played at many demonstrations,
including the protest at the Chicago Democratic Convention. The band was a
critical success and a popular one, with a Top 30 album.

The MC5 broke up in 1972. Now the band is seen as a forerunner of punk rock
and an early expression of heavy metal. Guitarist, singer and songwriter
Wayne Kramer was a founding member of the MC5. Now he plays what he describes
as songs about grown-up people doing grown-up things. This year, he had an
album called "Adult World." Let's start with the opening track, "Talkin'
Outta School."

(Soundbite of "Talkin' Outta School")

Mr. WAYNE KRAMER: (Singing) Do I need a shower or do I need a shave? Do I
need an inside tip? Is there any money that I can save? Do I need to find my
business or stick my beak in yours when it's clear that one man's ceiling is
another's floor? ...(Unintelligible). And I'll assassinate your character
'cause I live by my own rules. And I'll write it off as the voice of faith
'cause I'm talk, talk, talk, talkin' outta school. Talk, talk, talk, talk,
talkin' outta school. Talk, talk, talk, talk, talkin' outta school. Talk,
talk, talk, talk.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Let's go back to the beginning, more or less, of your story. You grew
up in Detroit. Did your father work in the auto industry?

Mr. KRAMER: Yeah. Well, in a satellite sense, you know. He was an
electrician and later was in the building trades.

GROSS: Did you...

Mr. KRAMER: And then I had a stepfather later on who also worked in the--he
actually worked in an oil refinery there in Detroit.

GROSS: Did you figure that when you grew up, your job would somehow be
connected to the auto industry?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, that was my fear. You know, that's the birthright if
you're born in the industrial Midwest, you know, that you're going to end up a
shop rat.

GROSS: How was the MC5 first created? And let's place it. It
was--What?--1968, '67?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, that's when we kind of broke out of a regional popularity
onto the national consciousness. But we really started about '64, '65 in a
neighborhood kind of way, you know. I looked around for guys in the
neighborhood that wanted to be in a band, and collected a bunch of
ne'er-do-wells just like me. We kind of coagulated as the MC5 at a point, me,
Rob Tyner, Fred Smith, Michael Davis and Dennis Thompson. And, you know, we
really worked hard at what we were trying to do. We really worked hard on
trying to be the best band we could possibly be, you know, be better than
everybody else, because for us, it was--we looked at it as a way out of the
factory, as an alternative to the lifestyle that we were guaranteed to have to
fulfill.

GROSS: Well, the MC5 became, you know, a self-styled revolutionary group.
What politicized you? What got you thinking more about revolution than Chuck
Berry?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, Chuck Berry was revolutionary. But, you know, it was the
day--we were very much a part of the time we lived in. We just were
frustrated with the slow pace of change, we were anxious about the future and
we felt like we had to take action. And the action we took was in endorsing
our idols, which were the Black Panther Party and Malcolm X and, you know, our
spiritual leaders, which we viewed as John Coltrane and, you know, Ghandi and
Martin Luther King and Archie Shepp. And we tried to bring all these ideas
together in a message that our band could represent, self-efficacy, that we
could present the idea that, you know, you didn't have to go along with the
program, that there was a better way that we could do things.

GROSS: The band hooked up with John Sinclair, who was the head of the White
Panther Party. What was the philosophy of the party?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, Bobby Seale and Huey Newton put out the call for there to
be a group in the white community, in the hippie community, to take up
parallel work with the Black Panther Party. And we were ready. I mean, we
just said, `Yeah, that's us,' you know. And it was romantic and it was
dangerous, but I don't want you to think that, you know, we were sitting in a
warehouse on the west side of Detroit, desperately cleaning our shotguns
waiting for the revolution. I mean, we sat around a table and smoked tons of
marijuana and laughed our asses off at what was going on, and this all just
seemed to make perfect sense to us, you know.

GROSS: Let me read part of the 10-point program of the White Panther Party.

Mr. KRAMER: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: (Reading) `We want justice. We want a free world economy. We want a
clean planet. We want a free educational system. We want to free all
structures from corporate rule. We want free access to all information, media
and technology. We want the freedom of all people who are being held against
their will in the conscripted armies of the oppressor throughout the world.
We want the freedom of all political prisoners of war. We want a free planet.
We want free land, free food, free shelter, free clothing, free music, free
culture, free media, free technology, free education, free health care, free
bodies, free people, free time and space; everything free.'

(Soundbite of laughter)

GROSS: Bring back memories?

Mr. KRAMER: Love it. Boy, that sounds great.

GROSS: Did you charge for concerts or were they always free?

Mr. KRAMER: Oh, we charged as much as we could. Unfortunately, many times
they were free.

GROSS: Speaking of free--I mean, I remember there were a lot of rallies in
the 1960s `Free John Sinclair,' who was affiliated with the MC5 and was
arrested--sentenced to 10 years for carrying two cigarettes. So what was the
relationship of...

Mr. KRAMER: Two marijuana cigarettes.

GROSS: I'm sorry. Two joints, yeah.

Mr. KRAMER: Right.

GROSS: What was the relationship of John Sinclair to the MC5?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, John was officially our manager, but he was really--see, we
had tried to work with, like, music business-type managers before and it never
worked because we were really insane. We were unmanageable. And John was the
first guy we met that actually--the band respected. And John admitted that,
you know, he didn't know what he was doing either; that, you know, he had just
learned from The Grateful Dead--they didn't know what they were doing and they
said, `Yeah, we've got these corporations to give us money--these record
companies. And you could do it, too.' So we said, `Hell, yes. Let's try.'
What would you be if you didn't try?

GROSS: On one of the MC5 recordings, "Ramblin' Rose," there's a live
introduction by Jesse Crawford, who was the White Panther minister of
information.

Mr. KRAMER: Mm-hmm.

GROSS: Was this a kind of standard thing in concerts, that one of the White
Panthers would come up and give their rap before a performance?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, you know, we were all ministers of something or another.
We--you know, ministers of culture in the streets, ministers of defense,
ministers of--you know, I mean, it--you know, I hope it comes across that this
stuff was done with a lot of humor, you know. We really weren't--you know, it
didn't get heavy till much later. It was really done with a lot of fun in the
early days. But that was J.C. Crawford's role. He was our emcee, you know,
our master of ceremonies. See, we tried to build this show based on our
heroes, and one of them was James Brown. And James Brown has an emcee that
would come out and say, you know, `And now the hardest-working man in show
business, here to sing such hits as "Try Me"'--dah, dah--`"I'll Go
Crazy"'--dah, dah. So we just took that spirit of what he was doing, and J.C.
came up with his own text on it.

Because we wanted to make this a show. We wanted to make--we wanted to
entertain people and take them someplace they hadn't been before, because the
world, as far as we could see--I mean, there were some awful bands back in
those days, you know. The California bands were terrible. You know, they
could barely play. And they would come into Detroit, you know, with these
huge reputations and we'd say, `God, you guys, man, kick out the jams or get
off the stage,' you know, because we were really--we were focused on this idea
of high energy. We wanted to have energy in our performance because that was
the thing that felt the best.

And when I listen to music, if I listen to black gospel music, there's a
visceral commitment, there's a visceral energy to it. There's a spirit to it
that reaches--that touches me, the music of James Brown, the music of Chuck
Berry and the free jazz music, you know. I even heard it in, you know, the
music of The Who or some early Rolling Stones tracks. It had that energy. So
that was the thing we focused on. So having the emcee was part of that to
create this entire spectacular event.

GROSS: So instead of having the James Brown emcee talking about his hits, you
had J.C. Crawford saying, `If you're not part of the solution, you're part of
the problem.'

Mr. KRAMER: Exactly.

GROSS: Let's hear the introduction to "Ramblin' Rose" and hear some of
"Ramblin' Rose" as well.

Mr. KRAMER: Great. Great.

GROSS: You're singing lead on this.

Mr. KRAMER: That's me, yeah.

(Soundbite of "Ramblin' Rose"; audience cheering)

Mr. J.C. CRAWFORD (Emcee): Brothers and sisters, the time has come for each
and every one of you to decide whether you are going to be the problem or
whether you are going to be the solution.

(Soundbite of audience cheering)

Unidentified Man: That's right!

Mr. CRAWFORD: You must choose, brothers. You must choose. It takes five
seconds--five seconds of decision, five seconds to realize your purpose here
on the planet. It takes five seconds to realize that it's time to move, it's
time to get down with it.

(Soundbite of audience cheering)

Mr. CRAWFORD: Brothers, it's time to testify. And I want to know, are you
ready to testify?

(Soundbite of audience cheering)

Mr. CRAWFORD: Are you ready? I give you a testimonial, the MC5!

(Soundbite of audience applauding and cheering; music)

Mr. KRAMER: (Singing) Yeah! Your love is like a ramblin' rose. The more you
feed it, the more it grows.

MC5: (Singing) Ramblin' rose. Ramblin' rose.

Mr. KRAMER: (Singing) Come on, grow.

MC5: (Singing) Hey!

GROSS: That's the MC5's recording "Ramblin' Rose." The lead vocal on that
sung by my guest, Wayne Kramer, who has a new CD called "Adult World."

What kind of crowd reactions would you get? What were the best reactions?
What were the most extreme reactions?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, probably the best reactions we got were in the Detroit
area, you know, because we played there regularly for years and we had a
regular job at the Grand D Ballroom. And we created that audience in Detroit
and groomed them to be the best rock 'n' roll audience in the world. And, you
know, we were able to transmit that to Chicago, to Cleveland, to New York and,
ultimately, we carried our message across the sea to England.

But it never really translated on the West Coast. The hippies just didn't
connect with the MC5. You know, we just had--we had too much macho energy,
our clothes were too shiny, our amps were too big and we did too much leaping,
spinning, screaming, hollering, feedback. And, you know, California was all
about, you know, (singing) `Wear some flowers in your hair,' and we were just
out of sync with the West Coast.

GROSS: My guest is Wayne Kramer, co-founded member of the MC5. This year he
had a solo CD called "Adult World." We'll talk more after a break. This is
FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Let's get back to our interview with Wayne Kramer. He co-founded the
band the MC5, which combined music and revolution in the '60s. This year he
had a solo album called "Adult World."

It was very difficult for you when the MC5 broke up, and you went through a
kind of long period of addiction to heroin, alcohol. You spent some time in
prison in I think it was the mid-'70s?

Mr. KRAMER: Mm-hmm. That's when I first started listening to "All Things
Considered."

GROSS: Oh, that's what they all say in prison.

Mr. KRAMER: A lot of people in prison listen to "All Things Considered."
It's a great show.

GROSS: Do they really?

Mr. KRAMER: Absolutely.

GROSS: That's really funny. Good. So you were in prison for--What?--selling
drugs to an undercover agent.

Mr. KRAMER: To a federal agent, yeah.

GROSS: What was their cover?

Mr. KRAMER: That they were New York mafioso drug couriers, and they looked
the part and they talked the part and they walked the part and--see, you know,
when the band broke up, I really lost my connection to any spiritual
principles, any principles at all, you know, and I was really kind of adrift
there in a real negative time and a place. And doing wrong is a way of
getting attention, too, you know, and there's a whole hierarchy in the
criminal underworld of, you know, being a ghetto star, you know, being a
hustler, being an earner, being, you know, somebody that gets paid, someone
that gets over. This is the kind of terminology, you know, that was in my
speech a lot. This is the way I thought a lot. And, you know, that all
culminated with this huge narcotics conspiracy that I was involved in.

GROSS: How hard is it for you now to stay straight?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, hard. You know, it's not that it's hard, because I know
today that I don't have a drug and an alcohol problem, I have a living
problem. And if I...

GROSS: What do you mean? What do you mean?

Mr. KRAMER: Well, see, drugs and alcohol make it possible for me to live in a
world that I can't live in, you know, because I've got so many resentments,
you know, because I'm angry about the MC5, because I'm angry that, you know,
my peers are all wealthy and I'm not. You know, I'm angry because I didn't
get the girl I wanted. I'm angry--you know, I have resentments, I have all
this baggage that I carry with me, and it makes the world a world I can't live
in. So fortunately, I've been able to find a way to live where drinking isn't
necessary and getting high isn't necessary and that I can have a good life, a
full life and be grateful for every day that I have in this life, you know.

GROSS: Wayne Kramer. Our interview was first broadcast last August after the
release of his CD "Adult World."

(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.

(Soundbite of "The Slime That Ate Cleveland")

Mr. KRAMER: (Singing) The slime that ate Cleveland came in off the lake.
Must have come in the winter wind when no one was awake. The slime that ate
Cleveland left ...(unintelligible) in his trail. Every guy sick as him
and every girl...
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