Fresh Air with Terry Gross

DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli, editor of the website TV Worth Watching, in for Terry Gross. Singer and banjo player Ralph Stanley, the bluegrass pioneer who has been making records for more than 60 years, died yesterday. He was 89 years old. Stanley first started recording in the late 1940s as the younger half of the Stanley Brothers. His brother, Carter, died in 1966. Starting in 1967, Ralph performed with his group, the Clinch Mountain Boys. And in 2002, two years after receiving the Living Legend medal from the Library of Congress, Ralph Stanley finally recorded and released his first solo album. Today we'll salute him by listening back to a conversation he had then with Terry Gross in 2002. If there's a recording for which Ralph Stanley may be most famous, it's his contribution to the Grammy-winning, platinum-selling soundtrack album of the 2000 Coen brothers' film "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" Stanley's haunting solo performance won the Grammy that year for Best Male Country Vocal Performance. And, like its title, it's even more haunting to hear 16 years later as part of his obituary. The name of the song is "O Death."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "O DEATH")

RALPH STANLEY: (Singing) O, death. Whoa, death. Won't you spare me over till another year? Well, what is this that I can't see with ice-cold hands taking hold of me? Well, I am death none can excel. I'll open the door to heaven or hell. Whoa, death, someone would pray, could you wait to call me another day? The children prayed. The preacher preached. Time and mercy is out of your reach. I'll fix your feet till you can't walk. I'll lock your jaw till you can't talk. I'll close your eyes so you can't see this very hour come and go with me. I'm death. I come to take the soul...

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: That's Ralph Stanley from the soundtrack of the film "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" You have what's often described as that lonesome sound, or, that high lonesome sound. Is that - would that - that describes your sound, but does it describe your place in the world at all? I mean, have you - do you think of yourself as feeling that kind of lonesomeness, or is that just...

STANLEY: Well...

GROSS: Yeah.

STANLEY: That lonesome sound, you can't learn that. That has got to be born and bred in you. And it's gift that God, I think, has given me. And he means for me to use that maybe for some purpose. You know, it might change somebody. I've got many of a letter and a phone call from people saying that that sound, that caused them, you know, to change their life and join the church, and I just sort of believe that gift was given to me for me to use for that purpose.

GROSS: Now, the church that you grew up in, the Baptist church that you grew up in, didn't allow instruments to be played in church. Did you sing a capella a lot in church?

STANLEY: I certainly did. Yeah, they don't - they don't allow music in the church. They don't have anything against music. I'm a member of the Primitive Baptist Church, and they will buy every CD that I have released, but they don't me just to bring the instruments much into the church.

GROSS: Now, what have you always liked about a cappella singing?

STANLEY: Well, you don't have anything to bother you. You know, if you use instrument, why, you have to stay on perfect time - timing. And if you do a cappella - I'm so bad, just wonder, you know, maybe I'll sing one verse this way and one verse another. And if you're doing it a capella, you don't have to keep any time. You can just go out as far as you want to with it.

GROSS: I guess you could bend the notes in whatever direction you want to, also.

STANLEY: Yeah, that's right. Yeah. That's what I like to do.

GROSS: Would you describe the part of Virginia that you grew up in?

STANLEY: I grew up down in the hills of Virginia. I can be in Kentucky in 20 minutes, Tennessee in 20 minutes or in the state of West Virginia in 20 minutes. And it's down in the Appalachian Mountains, down there. And it's sort of a poorer country. Most of the livelihood is coal mining and logging, working in the woods and things like that. Most people has a hard life down that way.

GROSS: And how did your family make a living when you were growing up?

STANLEY: My father was a logger. He cut timber and hauled it out of the woods and had a sawmill. They sawed it into lumber. And, you know, the mines needed things they call timbers and collars and so forth, and they used collars on the railroad track that they put the rails on. And he - that was his occupation, just a sawmill man and a logger.

GROSS: Did he have all of his fingers, or did he lose any of them in accidents?

STANLEY: No, he never did do any of the work. He was the boss so he hired men to do all that. He never did do any of the work.

GROSS: So he must've made a decent living.

STANLEY: Yeah, he was - he did. He was - we were just - maybe just a little bit ahead of maybe some of the - some of the neighbors and the folks. He did well with it.

GROSS: And would you describe the church that you went to? You talked a little bit about the music in it, but what was the church like physically?

STANLEY: Well, it was a little old white building, it had homemade benches in it. And - 'course, it had a stand for the preacher to preach. And way back in the early days, I'd been told - you know, I lined some songs sometimes. And I got that from the preacher, and I've heard that the reason that preacher lined it, they didn't have the money maybe to print a song book for each singer so he would line that song and then all of the congregation could hear the words and join in and sing.

GROSS: I think I'm not familiar with that expression, lining a song. What does that mean?

STANLEY: Well, you give out the words and then sing them. You give out the words, you know, and the people can hear what you're giving out, and they sing that song or that line and they do the same thing again.

GROSS: I see. OK.

STANLEY: Just like - you want me to give you a little sample?

GROSS: Yeah, would you?

STANLEY: (Singing) Amazing grace, how sweet the sound.

That's the lining.

(Singing) Amazing grace, how sweet the sound that saved a wretch like me, that saved a wretch like me. I once was lost, but now I'm found. I once was lost, but now I'm found. Was blind but now I see, was blind but now I see. See, he gave that line out and then they sung it.

GROSS: So even though the church didn't allow instruments - all the singing in church was a capella - when you got an instrument, when you got a banjo, did your parents frown on that or was that perfectly acceptable?

STANLEY: No, they - that was - they really wanted me - my brother and me to. He got a guitar, and I got a banjo. And the only thing that was bad about that, we couldn't do too well at first and sometimes my father would run us out of the house and we'd have to go out in a pasture, field or somewhere - we lived on a little farm - to practice.

GROSS: Because you didn't sound good, you had to practice far away?

STANLEY: Well, he - I guess he was a little nervous. He didn't think it sounded too good, I don't guess.

GROSS: How did you get your first banjo?

STANLEY: My first banjo? My mother's sister, my aunt, lived about a mile from where we did, and she raised some hogs. And she had - her - the hog - the mother - they called the mother a sow - of a hog. And she had some pigs. Well, the pigs were real pretty, and I was going to high school and I was taking agriculture in school. And I sort of got a notion that I'd like to do that, raise some hogs. And so my aunt had this old banjo, and my mother told me, said, which do you want, the pig or a banjo? And each one of them's $5 each. I said, I'll just take the banjo.

GROSS: Who started playing first, you or your brother Carter?

STANLEY: Well, I guess we started about the same time.

GROSS: And he's a couple of years older than you or younger than you?

STANLEY: He was 18 months older than me.

GROSS: Older than you.

BIANCULLI: Bluegrass artist Ralph Stanley speaking to Terry Gross in 2002. He died yesterday at age 89. More after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's 2002 interview with Ralph Stanley, the bluegrass pioneer who recorded with the Stanley Brothers and the Clinch Mountain Boys and was featured on the "O Brother, Where Art Thou?" soundtrack. He died yesterday at age 89.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: Now, I have a recording of "Man Of Constant Sorrow" from 1950. Your brother usually sang lead in your recordings...

STANLEY: He always sung lead.

GROSS: How did you end up using this as a showcase for you singing solo?

STANLEY: Well, I did a lot of solos like that, like "Pretty Polly" and "Little Maggie." And I would sing solos and he would sing solos. But when we sang a duet or a trio, he would do the lead and I would do the tenor.

GROSS: Right. Well, why don't we hear this 1950 version of "Man Of Constant Sorrow?" And here it is.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "I AM A MAN OF CONSTANT SORROW")

THE STANLEY BROTHERS: (Singing) I am a man of constant sorrow. I've seen trouble all my days. I bid farewell to old Kentucky, the place where I was borned and raised. For six long years, I've been in trouble. No pleasure here on Earth I find. For in this world, I'm bound to ramble. I have no friends to help me now.

GROSS: The Stanley Brothers. That was Ralph Stanley singing lead. Recorded in 1950, "I Am A Man Of Constant Sorrow." Ralph Stanley, how do you think your voice has changed since you were recording with your brother back in the early days?

STANLEY: I think - I really think my voice has gotten better in the last two or three years. I don't know why. I've been doing a lot of - a lot more lead singing, and everybody tells me that my voice was better than ever and I agree with them. Maybe I've learned to do more with it. I don't know what.

GROSS: Well, there's a real depth to your voice.

STANLEY: Well, thank you.

GROSS: Do you think you're any less shy about performing than you used to be?

STANLEY: I reckon I am. I'll tell you, when we first started, I was scared to death. I dreaded going on the stage worse than anything. But now I don't - don't care a bit.

GROSS: What were you afraid of? Not that stage fright needs an explanation, but what kind of stage fright did you have? What was your experience of it?

STANLEY: I just - people hearing my voice, a crowd of people. Maybe not singing to suit them or something. Maybe I'd make a mistake or my voice would crack or something.

GROSS: Did your brother, Carter, have the same insecurity or was he more confident?

STANLEY: No, he was more confident. He was very forward.

GROSS: He is the one who did, I think, most of the talking on stage as well as the lead singing.

STANLEY: He did all the emcee work.

GROSS: And did you ever wish that you could share that with him or were you relieved that you didn't have to worry about that?

STANLEY: No, I never did want to do that, but I'd say a year or maybe a couple of years before he passed away in '66, why, we would be on the stage together and maybe singing a song, and when the song ended, he'd just walk off. And I had to come up there and say something or walk off, too. So I would go up and start talking. And I believe he knew that I would be needing to do that someday, and I believe that that's the reason he done that.

GROSS: You think he knew that he was sick and wasn't long for the world?

GROSS: Yeah 'cause he was, you know, he was sick and I think he knew that.

GROSS: He died in 1966. Was it liver cancer?

STANLEY: Yes.

GROSS: Did you know that he was sick? Did he know that he was sick?

STANLEY: Yeah, he knew he was sick. We had a doctor up in Bristol, Tenn., that we went to all the time, and he liked us. He played the banjo a little bit. And when we moved down into Florida, the doctor came down there one Christmas on vacation, and he had his doctor instruments with him. And he took Carter in his house and examined him. And he told Carter, he said, if you don't quit what you're doing, he said, you won't last another year. And that was the 26th of December, and he passed away the next year on the first of December.

GROSS: So the doctor almost hit it on the head.

STANLEY: He certainly did.

GROSS: When your brother died, it must've really set you into a crisis, both, you know, personally and professionally.

STANLEY: Well...

GROSS: Go ahead.

STANLEY: It did. I didn't hardly want to do - you know, I wanted to carry on, but I didn't know whether I could or not. But I got cards and letters by the hundreds, phone calls telling me, said, please don't quit. We've always supported the Stanley Brothers, and now we'll be more supportive to you because we feel like you might need it. So that, you know, that picked me up.

GROSS: You've had good years and you've had lean years, professionally. What were the most difficult years?

STANLEY: The most difficult years was when - about the time Elvis Presley came out, that rock 'n' roll boom. And that just about crippled everybody. I guess that's the reason that Columbia Records let us go, and there was a lot of entertainers that the record companies got rid of at that time. It just crippled everything except rock 'n' roll.

GROSS: Did you like Elvis Presley?

STANLEY: Well, I - do you mean to hear him? I don't - I don't like that style, myself. I never did like Elvis's singing, but there was millions that did.

GROSS: A lot of people keep - try to stay current and keep changing their repertoire and the kind of instrumentation that they sing with in an attempt to stay current and reach new audiences and so on. And that's not what you've done. You've kind of stuck to what it is that you do. Were there ever periods where people were convincing you that you had to - you had to get more current, you had to sing different songs or have different kinds of musicians with you?

STANLEY: No, I've never thought of anything like that. All that the people tells me that they, you know, they're glad that I'm a-keepin' the same old-time sound I started with. And I believe that's why, you know, I've been in it 55 years and I believe that's the reason I'm here today.

GROSS: Where do you live now? How close to where you grew up, in southwest Virginia, do you live?

STANLEY: I live about six miles from where I was born and raised.

GROSS: Do you have land?

STANLEY: Yeah, I've got some - I've got some land. I've still got the old home place where I have a festival each year. And then I bought six acres about six miles from where I was raised and built a house and live there.

GROSS: Do you have any farm animals?

STANLEY: I've got a couple of horses and got a few cattle. I couldn't hardly get that completely out of my system.

GROSS: (Laughter).

STANLEY: I lose money every year on them, but it's just a hobby I like.

BIANCULLI: Ralph Stanley speaking to Terry Gross in 2002.
DAVID BIANCULLI, HOST:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm David Bianculli in for Terry Gross. If you wished you could see the popular Broadway revival of the musical "She Loves Me" but haven't been able to get to New York to see it, you're in luck. You'll have the opportunity next Thursday, June 30, when Broadwayhd.com live-streams that night's performance of the show, making it available on its website and other platforms. "She Loves Me" is one of two current musical revivals by the late composer Jerry Bock and the lyricist Sheldon Harnick. The other is among the most famous in Broadway history, "Fiddler On The Roof." Harnick just received a special lifetime achievement Tony award for his work.

The director of this new "She Loves Me" production is Scott Ellis, associate artistic director of the Roundabout Theatre, who also directed an earlier revival of "She Loves Me" way back in 1993. Today we'll hear from both Sheldon Harnick and Scott Ellis, who spoke with Terry Gross in March.

"She Loves Me" is set in Budapest in 1934. The two main characters, Georg and Amalia, have just started working together in a shop that sells perfume, soaps and cosmetics. They're rivals and snipe at each other at work. What they don't know is that they are corresponding with each other through personal ads. The letters are delivered anonymously, so neither of them realizes who they're actually writing to and that they're actually falling in love with each other.

Let's start with the opening song. It's morning and the characters are just arriving at the shop where they work. The song is "Good Morning, Good Day."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "GOOD MORNING, GOOD DAY")

DANIEL MASSEY: (As Georg, singing) Good morning, good day. How are you this beautiful day? Isn't this a beautiful morning?

NATHANIEL FREY: (As Sipos, singing) Very.

MASSEY: (As Georg, singing) Hey, Sipos, how's this?

FREY: (As Sipos, singing) That's a very elegant pose, but is all that elegance necessary?

MASSEY: (As Georg) And why not? I represent Maraczek's, don't I? We're not a butcher shop or a hardware store. We're a perfumery, and that means we're...

FREY: (As Sipos, singing) We're stylish?

MASSEY: (As Georg, singing) That's it.

FREY: (As Sipos, singing) With a quiet dignity.

MASSEY: (As Georg, singing) Yes. And we get the tilt of our hats right.

FREY: (As Sipos, singing) That's right.

MASSEY: (As Georg, singing) When I ride my bike, people see what Maraczek's like, so I think it's very important that I look my best. Here comes Ms. Ritter.

FREY: (As Sipos) Ms. Ritter.

BARBARA BAXLEY: (As Ms. Ritter, singing) Good morning.

DANIEL MASSEY NATHANIEL AND FREY: (As Georg and Sipos, singing) Good day.

BAXLEY: (As Ms. Ritter, singing) How are you this glorious day? Have you seen a lovelier morning?

DANIEL MASSEY AND NATHANIEL FREY: (As Georg and Sipos, singing) Never.

BAXLEY: (As Ms. Ritter, singing) It's too nice a day to be inside shoveling soap. I have no more energy whatsoever. Does anybody mind if I take the day off?

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

TERRY GROSS, BYLINE: Sheldon Harnick, Scott Ellis, welcome to FRESH AIR. Congratulations on this new production. I so thoroughly enjoyed it. So let's start with the opening song that we just heard, and then we'll kind of pull back and talk about this new revival. Sheldon Harnick, what was your job with the opening song that sets the scene for the whole show?

SHELDON HARNICK: It was to set the style of the show, which is an intimate show, and to introduce the people who worked in the shop as economically as possible. And also, because this was not a huge show with a lot of big numbers and it was an intimate show stylistically, it seemed useful to introduce the audience to that at the very top of the show.

GROSS: And, Scott, in directing the opening number, as we're getting introduced to each person, the way you've directed it each kind of person enters from a different part of the stage and sings their few bars. And it - just, like, the timing is so beautiful. Can you talk about what you tried to do in the opening number in terms of the direction?

SCOTT ELLIS: So as Sheldon just said, it's such a beautiful opening because it does introduce all the characters. And staging-wise, the set is the perfumery and then with - the outside of the world is Budapest. So I just decided to use as much of the environment as I could to introduce each character, including going down the aisles. So it sort of gives them each a special sort of moment to be introduced and for an audience to see it.

GROSS: So I want to change the mood a little bit and play one of the ballads from the show. And this is just a beautiful song. It's perhaps my favorite song from the show. It's called "Dear Friend." Would one of you like to set up where this song fits into the show?

HARNICK: What it is - the show is about these two people, Amalia and Georg, and through a kind of Lonely Hearts Club arrangement they have started writing to each other. And through...

GROSS: Anonymously.

HARNICK: Anonymously. And they don't know what each other looks like, they don't know their real names. But through their letters, they have become very close. They believe that they're in love with each other. And finally, they arrange to meet. They're going to meet at a very romantic Hungarian cafe - this is at the end of the first act - but because of plot complications, Amalia goes to the cafe but Georg doesn't. He's been fired, and he thinks it's no way for him to go and meet her when he's depressed.

So she is sitting there for two hours waiting for her dear friend - in their letters to one another, they signed them dear friend instead of their names. She's waiting for dear friend to show up, and he doesn't. So she sings this song, "Dear Friend." And I tried to express what she would be feeling in that song, her heartbreak - her potential heartbreak because she's left alone and he never shows up.

GROSS: And I should mention - so that he could spot her in the crowd, she's carrying, as she promised that she would, a copy of "Anna Karenina" with a rose in it...

HARNICK: That's right. That's how he's...

GROSS: ...Which she refers to in the song.

HARNICK: Yeah.

GROSS: So this is the fabulous Barbara Cook from the original cast recording singing the Sheldon Harnick, Jerry Bock song "Dear Friend," and this is from "She Loves Me."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "DEAR FRIEND")

BARBARA COOK: (As Amalia, singing) Charming, romantic, the perfect cafe. Then as if it isn't bad enough, a violin starts to play. Candles and wine, tables for two, but where are you, dear friend? Couples go past me. I see how they look so discretely sympathetic when they see the rose and the book. I make believe nothing is wrong. How long can I pretend? Please make it right. Don't break my heart. Don't let it end, dear friend.

GROSS: That's Barbara Cook from the original cast recording of "She Loves Me." A new revival of the musical opens Thursday. With me is Sheldon Harnick, who wrote the lyrics to this 1963 Broadway musical, and Scott Ellis, who directed this new revival for the Roundabout Theatre. He also directed the 1993 revival of "She Loves Me."

So I think we all agree that that is just a beautiful song. And, Sheldon Harnick, my favorite part of that lyric - and I just love this for its just, like, honesty and simplicity and plainspokenness - is please make it right. Don't break my heart. Don't let it end, dear friend. And, you know, we were talking about how "She Loves Me" and "Fiddler On The Roof" are playing in revival at the same time on Broadway.

"Fiddler On The Roof," I think the lyrics are much more kind of complicated and more intricate rhyme schemes. And this just has this just, like I said, plainspokenness. Perfect though, you know? Spare, every word perfect.

HARNICK: What was interesting, I mean, listening to Barbara right now is that I think every song in the new revival is played faster.

ELLIS: It's so funny you're saying that 'cause that is - that's exactly what I was thinking about. Everything in that original was so much slower. I'm not saying - it's just interesting.

HARNICK: Yeah.

ELLIS: And I've not listened to the original cast album in years. I mean, I probably - I haven't listened to it in 23 years. I listened to it when I did the original - but it is so fascinating - and I will also say when Sheldon would come into rehearsals, which I was always thrilled when he did, his one (laughter) note was always, slow it down.

Slow it - I'd want a little bit more of a fast pace and I liked the - but Sheldon - and by the way, Sheldon was right. We do not do it as slow as this. But we did slow down things once you start - came into rehearsals.

BIANCULLI: Sheldon Harnick wrote the lyrics for the musical "She Loves Me." Scott Ellis is the director of the revival now on Broadway. We'll continue their conversation with Terry Gross after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from earlier this year with lyricist Sheldon Harnick and director Scott Ellis. Their current Broadway revival of the musical "She Loves Me" will be streamed live next Thursday by BroadwayHD.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: When you were working on this new revival, Scott, and also on the '93 revival of "She Loves Me," how closely did you work with Sheldon Harnick, the lyricist, who's joining us today? And what did you want to know from him? I mean, you're so lucky to be doing this fabulous revival and having the lyricist available to talk with.

ELLIS: The first time I did it - and remembering that I was not that experienced, it was my first Broadway show - but what I do remember with all of them, all three of them - and Jerry was alive at that time - it was a terrific collaboration. And they showed me a great deal of respect. I just remember even at that time in my life thinking, wow, these incredibly talented, you know, successful writers are actually just sitting down and we're collaborating.

GROSS: What did they tell you that you wouldn't have known just working on your own?

ELLIS: We have a really good example of what happened at this revival. Sheldon came in during rehearsals when we were in the rehearsal room and watched some of the numbers and the scenes and he'd give a few notes. And it was all great, it was fine. Joe came in. He had not been in the rehearsal...

GROSS: This is Joe Masteroff, who wrote the book.

ELLIS: Joe Masteroff, who wrote the book. And he had not been in. So I said please come in while we're tecking (ph). So he sat down, and we did a scene and then we did a number, "Tonight At Eight," where Georg is talking about meeting this dear friend for the first time.

And so I was like OK, I'm sort of happy with how things are going. And (laughter) it's over with so that's good. I go up to Joe, and I said yeah, so, Joe, you know, what do you think? And again, this is someone that I've worked together and trust. And he looked at me, he says that doesn't work.

(LAUGHTER)

ELLIS: And I was like, what? I can still get crushed in a second. I said what, Joe? He said, well, I'm sorry I'm saying that, you know, but it's just a gut thing that that's not correct for that character. I was like OK, Joe, what do you mean? I'm thinking Joe, I've done this. You know, I did - I understand this piece. And what he said was so 100 percent right. I had allowed Zach, as we were exploring Georg and the character - and he was - Zach was exploring being a little goofier in this song. And he was - he sort of fell on the floor and he was - sat on the counter and he twirled. And he did a lot of stuff.

And Joe said very simply - he said he wouldn't do that in the shop. He respects and loves this shop too much to get on the floor, to spin on that counter that he polishes all day. And I thought oh, my God, you are exactly right. And we changed the whole thing.

GROSS: Well, since you mentioned the song "Tonight At Eight," I thought we should hear it. And we do have a little snippet from the new revival. So we can hear that with the actor who you were talking about, Zachary Levi. And so this is the song "Tonight At Eight," when he's getting ready to meet this person who he basically found through a personal ad, and they've been corresponding anonymously. And he's planning to actually meet her tonight at 8. He's nervous and excited. Here's Zachary Levi from the new production of "She Loves Me."

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "TONIGHT AT EIGHT")

ZACHARY LEVI: (As Georg Nowack, singing) I wish I knew exactly how I'll act and what will happen when we dine tonight at 8. I know I'll drop the silverware but will I spill the water or the wine tonight at 8? Tonight I'll walk right up and sit right down beside the smartest girl in town and then it's anybody's guess. More and more I'm breathing less and less, less. My imagination, I can hear our conversation taking shape tonight at 8. I'll sit there saying absolutely nothing or I'll jabber like an ape tonight at 8. Two more minutes, three more seconds, 10 more hours to go. I'll know when this is done if something's ended or begun. And if it goes all right, who knows? I might propose tonight at 8.

(APPLAUSE)

GROSS: That's Zachary Levi in the new production, the new revival of "She Loves Me" on Broadway. My guest, Sheldon Harnick, wrote the lyrics to that show as well as the lyrics for "Fiddler On The Roof," which is also in revival on Broadway. Also with us is Scott Ellis, who directed this new Roundabout production of "She Loves Me" and did the Roundabout revival in 1993. The original show was from 1963. So, OK, one of my favorite lines from the song we just heard - more and more, I'm breathing less and less...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: ...His description of his anxiety. Do you remember writing that, Sheldon?

HARNICK: I remember almost getting killed writing that. That was one of the pieces of music on one of the tapes that Jerry sent me. And when I heard that, that kind of - to me, it always sounded kind of French. (Humming) I just couldn't wait to put lyrics to it. I knew that it should be for Georg, and I started to work on it. And I find that what helps me to write is when I walk. We have a swimming pool out in the country, and also I swim. And that helps for some reason to stimulate lyrics.

So I'm walking and I'm singing to myself (humming) and working of the lyric. And all of a sudden, I hear this loud horn. And I turn around and I'm 2 inches away from a huge truck. I was crossing the street and I was working on the lyric and I'm paying no attention. And this guy slammed on his breaks and honked his horn. And he looked at me, and he swore at me. And I looked at him, I said it's OK, it's OK, I got the lyric.

(LAUGHTER)

ELLIS: And the rest is history.

GROSS: That's hysterical.

BIANCULLI: Sheldon Harnick wrote the lyrics for the musical "She Loves Me." Scott Ellis is the director of the revival now on Broadway. We'll continue their conversation with Terry Gross after a break. This is FRESH AIR.

(SOUNDBITE OF MUSIC)

BIANCULLI: This is FRESH AIR. Let's get back to Terry's interview from earlier this year with lyricist Sheldon Harnick and director Scott Ellis. Their current Broadway revival of the musical "She Loves Me" will be streamed live next Thursday by BroadwayHD.

(SOUNDBITE OF ARCHIVED BROADCAST)

GROSS: Sheldon Harnick, I know you had hoped that this would be a big hit when it opened in 1963 - I mean, everybody who works on a musical hopes it's going to be a hit.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: And although it's now acknowledged as, like, you know, a jewel of a musical, a perfect musical, it closed in nine months and...

HARNICK: Oh, it was a heartbreaking experience. We opened, and we got very good reviews. And I thought to myself, fine, we're going to be - we'll have a two-year run for sure. But after six months, business began to fall off. And sure enough, by the time - by eight and a half or nine months later we closed. And I think we lost - if I remember right, the producer lost his entire investment.

GROSS: Oh, you're kidding.

HARNICK: So the show had closed. I was so upset that at The Grammys I didn't go because I thought, well, we're going to lose again and I don't want to be heartsick again. But at The Grammys, the show won for best new show album. At any rate, a year went by without any productions. And all of us who had been associated with it loved it, so we were all heartsick.

And then there was a production at Bucks County. The cast wrote a letter to Joe Masteroff and Jerry Bock and me. And the letter said we don't understand why this didn't work on Broadway. Our audiences love it. And that's the way it was up until Scott revived it in 1993. And that production got love letters from the critics.

And the following year, we had 60 productions, all because of Roundabout and Scott Ellis - extraordinarily gratifying.

GROSS: Scott, that must make you happy.

ELLIS: Oh, please, that's, you know...

(LAUGHTER)

ELLIS: ...What else do I want to hear, you know? It's thrilling.

GROSS: So the show was not a hit. It closed in nine months. But there was a big hit song that came out of the show, the title song "She Loves Me." Jack Jones had a big hit of it. And I will confess here that when I was growing up I really did not like that version of the song. I...

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: I started to love the song when I heard the cast recordings. So let's hear "She Loves Me" and let's play the 1993 revival version that Scott Ellis directed. Boyd Gaines, who sings the role on this, won a Tony Award for his performance.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "SHE LOVES ME")

BOYD GAINES: (As Georg Nowack, singing) She loves me and to my amazement I love it knowing that she loves me. She loves me - true, she doesn't show it. How could she when she doesn't know it? Yesterday, she loathed me, but now today she likes me. And tomorrow, tomorrow, oh - my teeth ache from the urge to touch her.

I'm speechless for I mustn't tell her. It's wrong now, but it won't be long now before my love discovers that she and I are lovers. Imagine how surprised she's bound to be. She loves me. She loves me. I love her. Isn't that a wonder?

GROSS: That's Boyd Gaines in the 1993 revival of "She Loves Me." My guests are Scott Ellis, who directed that revival and the new revival on Broadway. And also with me is Sheldon Harnick, who wrote the lyrics for this musical "She Loves Me." And he wrote the lyrics to "Fiddler On The Roof," which is also back on Broadway.

So let's talk about this song, Sheldon Harnick. It's sung by the leading man when he realizes that he and this woman, who have been anonymously corresponding through a "Miss Lonelyhearts" kind of arrangement, are actually falling in love. And he knows who she is but she doesn't yet know that he is the person she was anonymously corresponding with. Anyways, so one outstanding line in this is my teeth ache from the urge to touch her. Have your teeth ever ached like that?

HARNICK: Well, that's something that happens...

GROSS: Yeah.

HARNICK: Yeah, that's something that happens to me throughout my life. When I've seen a particularly pretty girl, for some reason my back teeth are very sensitive. And so I put that in the lyric. I thought it works for me. Maybe...

ELLIS: (Laughter) Maybe it'll work for other people.

HARNICK: Right. Of course, now I don't have those teeth anymore. Wherever they are, when they see a pretty girl, I'm sure they hurt.

(LAUGHTER)

GROSS: So in the new revival, Jane Krakowski is cast as the second leading lady. So she's more of, like, the comic leading lady. And I think she has a lot of fans from "30 Rock" who would be curious to hear how does she sound in the context of a Broadway musical? We happen to have a short clip of her singing a song called "A Trip To The Library." Sheldon Harnick, I'm going to ask you to describe the context for this song.

HARNICK: Ilona, the character, she keeps falling in love with the wrong men, and they treat her like dirt. And finally, she says no more. I'm not going to let this happen anymore. And she goes for a walk, and without meaning to, she wanders into a library in Budapest. And she is just a little hysterical just staring at all these books and wondering and just feeling lost. And suddenly, this stranger begins to talk to her. He says - in effect, he's saying, are you all right, you know? And she looks at him and she realizes he's being kind to her.

And this is something she's so rarely experienced that it's a brand-new experience. And she is telling this experience to one of the other clerks, Sipos, who works in the shop, the fact that she's met this very nice man and how unusual that is. And that's what's happened as she says she now understands the magic of books, the fact that she's gone into the library and it's led to a good relationship.

GROSS: So this is a very short clip that we have from the new revival of "She Loves Me," and this is Jane Krakowski singing.

(SOUNDBITE OF SONG, "A TRIP TO THE LIBRARY")

JANE KRAKOWSKI: (As Ilona Ritter, singing) And there was this dear, sweet, clearly respectable, thickly bespectacled man who stood by my side and quietly said to me, ma'am, don't mean to intrude, but I was just wondering are you in need of some help?

I said no - yes, I am. The next thing I know, I'm sipping hot chocolate and telling my troubles to Paul, whose tender brown eyes kept sending compassionate looks. A trip to the library has made a new girl of me, for suddenly I can see the magic of books.

GROSS: That's Jane Krakowski from the new revival of "She Loves Me." My guest Scott Ellis directed the revival. Also with us is Sheldon Harnick, who wrote the lyrics to this 1963 musical. And he also wrote the lyrics to "Fiddler On The Roof," which is also revived now on Broadway.

So, you know, Sheldon Harnick, what you think of the show. You know what you think of this particular revival of the show. Are you going to care what the reviews say?

HARNICK: I'm thin-skinned enough, so I regret to say I will care. I shouldn't and particularly because we've had now - what - about four weeks of previews on this, "She Loves Me." And the consensus of everybody who's seen it is that it's gorgeous.

So they should get good reviews. As Scott and I said, you never know whether the critics are going to see it in the same way. But if the reviews are mean or if they're mean-spirited, I will be very upset, very hurt by it.

GROSS: Well, I want to congratulate you both on this revival of "She Loves Me." My guest Sheldon Harnick wrote the lyrics to "She Loves Me" and he also wrote the lyrics to "Fiddler on the Roof," which is playing right across the street from "She Loves Me" in a revival. And also with us has been Scott Ellis, who directed this new revival, this new Roundabout Theatre production of "She Loves Me." He also directed Roundabout's 1993 revival. Thank you both so much.

HARNICK: Thank you, Terry.

ELLIS: Thank you.

BIANCULLI: Sheldon Harnick and Scott Ellis spoke with Terry in March, shortly before opening night. The day after "She Loves Me" opened, Scott Ellis married his partner. And Sheldon Harnick needn't have worried about the opening night reviews. The New York Times said the show was rapturously revived. Variety said the show is so charming you kind of wish it would follow you home. A performance of "She Loves Me" will be streamed live next Thursday on the BroadwayHD website.
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