Food Writer Steven Raichlen on the Oldest Form of Cooking

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 15, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071501NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: The Barbecue Bible
Sect: News; Domestic
Time: 12:06

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Grilling and barbecuing used to be synonymous with the hot dogs, hamburgers, steaks, and chicken you'd make at a picnic or in the backyard. But now, home cooks and gourmet chefs are grilling all kinds of foods. Practically every country has its own grilled dishes.

My guest Steven Raichlen wanted to sample as many as he could. His new cookbook is called "The Barbecue Bible." For his research, he ate his way across 150,000 miles, covering 25 countries over five continents.

Raichlen is also the author of "The High-Flavor, Low-Fat Cookbook" series. He says grilling is not only the oldest and most widespread method of cooking, it's also the most forgiving. But there's still an art to it.

STEVEN RAICHLEN, AUTHOR, "THE BARBECUE BIBLE": Barbecuing and grilling are arts in the sense that you're never working with the same fire twice. A fire is always different. It will cook differently. You can always slow the cooking process down by moving the food away from the fire. Whenever I build a fire, I always leave part of the grate without fire. Actually, I build a tapered fire called a two-tiered fire.

So, you can move the food back and forth. You can always buy yourself time. Whereas with something like deep-fat frying or with baking -- anything you do in a kitchen, I think, requires more precision.

GROSS: And tell me more about how you build your two-tiered fire.

RAICHLEN: Well, I use a chimney starter. Ideally -- actually, my favorite fuel to cook over is wood. And this is something people don't realize, but you can buy hardwood chunks almost at any large hardware store, and light the chunks the same way you would light charcoal.

Now, let's assume most people are going to be more familiar with charcoal, here, too, there are different gradations. My favorite type of charcoal is called char-wood (ph), and that is whole logs that are cooked in a kiln. If you look at it, it looks very tree-like. You can see the rings.

And this is a much cleaner, purer product than, let's say, briquets, which may contain coal dust or paraffin or petroleum binders or starters. Any case, so -- chimney starter looks like a coffee can with the top and bottom cut out. A -- some sort of ignition at the bottom -- could be crumpled up newspaper; could be a little paraffin fire-starter; the char-wood or charcoal in the top.

And basically you light it and come back 15 minutes later, and that cylindrical shape enables all the coals to light evenly, and you get a beautiful glowing mass of coals, which you then dump out into your grill.

Now to set up the grill, if you can imagine a sloping layer of coals. On one side of the grills, the coals will be a double layer of thickness; on the other side, the coals will be a single layer of thickness. And I actually leave about maybe a quarter or fifth of the grill with no coals at all.

So, I've got three heats. I've got a high heat, medium heat, and low heat. And I can achieve either one, simply by moving the food back and forth.

Gas grill, it's easier. Right? On a gas grill, you simply raise or lower the burners. Actually, for a gas grill, I do build a high fire on one side and then a medium heat on the other side, and I like to move the food back and forth.

GROSS: You know, those little pieces of wood that you describe that you could buy instead of the briquets...

RAICHLEN: Yeah.

GROSS: ... will they give a nice smoky quality?

RAICHLEN: They will give a wonderful smoky...

GROSS: A wood-smoked flavor?

RAICHLEN: ... yeah, a wonderful smoky flavor. And it's important to make a distinction. Now, a lot of people are familiar with using wood chips, which you soak and you toss on your charcoals or your briquets. This is different. These are actually chunks of wood that you cook over.

There's a common misconception, and that is that charcoal gives a flavor. There is not a charcoal flavor. There is a charred flavor that comes from cooking over charcoal. But if you want a wood or smoky flavor, you really have to use wood or wood chips.

GROSS: What's the difference between grilling and barbecuing?

RAICHLEN: Ah, great question. Very simply, grilling is a direct high-heat method done in a very brief amount of time with a small piece of meat. High-heat, the flames are right under what you're gonna cook. It's usually a steak or chicken breast or fish filet or vegetable; time period rarely more than 20 minutes, will you grill something.

Barbecuing, on the other hand, is a long, slow, indirect method. The heat source is located away from the food. The cooking time is measured in hours, rather than minutes. If you -- you know, you start to get in some of the -- into some of the American styles of barbecuing -- a Texas brisket (ph) at Sunny Brian's (ph) in Dallas might be cooked for 12 to 14 hours.

Smoke is very important in barbecuing. There's always a smoke -- smoky component. Barbecue is really designed to cook large cuts of meat and tough cuts of meat. And it's the slow, long, cooking that tenderizes those cuts.

GROSS: Let's talk about just some of the cooking principles that are helpful to keep in mind when you're grilling, like the importance of preheating the grill.

RAICHLEN: Hmm. That's actually commandment number three in the 10 commandments of barbecuing and grilling. People -- you need a high heat to start with to get the sear and the char that really give you the characteristic grilled flavor. And a lot of people start with too low a heat. You won't get handsome grill marks if you start with too low a heat; you won't get the searing and charring that really give you the grilled flavor.

GROSS: So, how long do you preheat?

RAICHLEN: Well, if I'm working over charcoal, let's say it takes 15 to 20 minutes to light the coals in the chimney starter. And then I would spread out the coals and maybe leave the grate on for another five minutes -- the idea here being that you want to get the grate very hot before you brush it with a wire brush, to clean it. That gives you a good cleaning.

And then when you oil the grate and put the food on, you get nice grill marks. And grill marks are really the -- they're really the trademark maybe of, you know, an expert griller. It's that handsome cross-hatch of grill marks that you're looking for.

GROSS: And you say don't stab the food. Make sure you're turning it with a spatula or something like that.

RAICHLEN: Yeah, I mean unless you want to deliberately drain out the juices into the coals instead of down your gullet. It's -- I don't know why companies actually manufacture barbecue forks. The idea here -- you're cooking a steak, if you stab it, the juices run out. If you turn it with tongs, you keep the juices inside.

GROSS: Know when to baste. Well, when do you baste?

RAICHLEN: Well, first thing to know is when not to baste. In the United States, we are very partial to a sweet tomato-based barbecue sauce, and that really should go on at the end of cooking. Anything that contains sugar should be applied the last five to 10 minutes.

Now, if you're working with a melted butter or olive oil or yogurt-based or wine-based basting mixture, those can go on earlier. But anything that contains a lot of sugar will burn. So you want to add -- put it on at the end.

GROSS: And you say give it a rest when it's done cooking.

RAICHLEN: Yeah, this is the easiest thing that you can do to make good-tasting barbecue taste great. If you're cooking a steak or chicken or fish, let it sit for a few minutes before you serve it. Now, why is that? When you cook over direct high heat as in grilling, the heat drives the meat juices to the center of whatever you're cooking -- your steak, your chop.

If you serve it right away, when you cut into it, the outside of that steak will be dry because the juices haven't had a chance to be reabsorbed by the meat tissue. If you let it sit for two or three minutes, the juices will come back to the edge and you have a much juicier piece of meat.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Raichlen, and he's the author of the new book The Barbecue Bible.

You travel through what you describe as the "barbecue belt," which is basically around the globe. And you travel to lots of countries here, there and yonder that grill their food. So, give us a sense of your map -- your barbecue map?

RAICHLEN: Well, the barbecue trail circumnavigates the globe. It primarily stays between the Tropic of Capricorn and Cancer -- that is, it's primarily a tropical phenomenon, which makes sense because you think people who live in the tropics spend more time outdoors, cook outdoors.

But there are a few really important exceptions, like Argentina for example; or like North America where there's a lot of grilling; or like Japan which -- and Korea -- which were freezing when I visited them, but you know, grilling was very popular. And in fact, grilling is a way in those countries for people to warm up in the winter.

So that's basically the barbecue trail. I started in Jamaica which is the home of Jamaican jerk and it's -- that is probably closest to a dish the Arawak Indians called "barbecoa" (ph), or at least to the Spanish ears -- the ears of the Spanish explorers. It sounded like barbecoa. A barbecoa was a wooden frame, a wooden -- wooden grid over which meats were smoke-cooked, and of course it gave us our word "barbecue."

So I wanted to start there because I felt like that was probably the closest, you know, birthplace of one type of barbecue.

GROSS: Well Jamaican jerk or Jamaican barbecue is catching on in the states. Tell us more about their technique.

RAICHLEN: Well, first of all, I mean, there's the jerk -- first of all there's the word "jerk" -- which comes from a patois word "to juke" (ph) which means to stab something or someone with a sharp implement. And the idea here was that first you would juke the pig twice -- you'd kill it by stabbing it. And then you'd poke little holes in meat all over with sharp implement, and you would rub the jerk seasoning into the meat.

Now, the jerk seasoning is a fiery paste made of as many as two dozen ingredients: scotch bonnet chili for heat; native Caribbean thyme for aroma; the all-spice berry which is very important and is much stronger -- the Jamaican version -- than the North American version is; cinnamon; you have soy sauce; you have oil -- a lot of different ingredients.

And it's very salty. And you know, it was -- I found -- I mean, of course everyone -- most people have had jerk in North America, but I found when I visited Boston Beach, which is the birthplace of jerk, that you know, you really find things out that -- that you don't know from eating it in North America. One is how salty the marinade is, for example. I mean, you know, as a cookbook author, I was a little nervous putting the authentic amount of salt in the recipe, but that's really quite a bit.

Now, the next thing that makes jerk so unique is that it's cooked over a fire made with allspice wood. And not only that, but in Boston Beach, they actually, instead of using a metal grate, they use sticks of allspice wood. Those sticks catch fire during the process of the three or four hours it takes to cook a jerk pork.

So, the pit-master is periodically replacing the bars of his grate because they're burning. And that's one reason why Jamaican jerk is so extraordinary and another reason why it would be difficult to exactly reproduce it at home.

GROSS: Yeah, I can imagine.

LAUGHTER

As you point out, you know, in America, the idea of barbecue is so associated with, you know, hamburgers and hot dogs and slabs of steak. It's a real, like, carnivores delight. And if you're a vegetarian at a barbecue, you're considered a real, like, killjoy. Or if you just like to have little portions of meat with lots of vegetables, you're considered, you know, really out of place at a barbecue.

Whereas in many of the places you travel to, such as Thailand and Vietnam, the whole idea of grilling is really different from here. And the proportion of meat to everything else is really different, too. Tell us about some of your experiences in Thailand and what was served there.

RAICHLEN: Well, that was a really wonderful antidote to the sort of belly-bludgeoning, belt-loosening portions of meat that are served at North American barbecues. And I mean, I like North American barbecue as much as the next guy, but in Thailand, I have a recipe that's called lettuce bundles with lemon grass grilled beef, from Thailand.

Now in Thailand, we might sit down to an eight-ounce sirloin steak. In Thailand, that steak would serve four people instead of one people -- one person. It would be marinated in a paste of lemon grass garlic shallot, fish sauce, or you could use soy sauce, lime juice, and sugar. So you do have the sweet and salty that you have in the West, but with a much more aromatic and exotic flavor.

The beef is then cut into very thin strips and grilled. And it's served with a platter of -- let's see, you get a lettuce leaf; you get sprigs of fresh mint; you get sprigs of Thai basil. You might get bean spouts. You might get steamed or boiled rice noodles, which are all kind of bundled up, almost taco or moshu (ph) style, together with the meat.

So you take a bite. You get this explosive flavor of the lemon grass marinated meat, but you're also eating your vegetables and your starches.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Steven Raichlen. His new book is called The Barbecue Bible. Let's take a short break and then we'll talk some more.

This is FRESH AIR.

Back with Steven Raichlen, and he traveled the globe sampling grilled and barbecue food around the world. And he's written a new book called The Barbecue Bible. It's about his adventures and lots of recipes.

A lot of the barbecue that you ate in your journey around the barbecue belt covering the world was food bought from street vendors. And as you point out, street vendor food is -- can be really delicious, but you never know if it's very sanitary. People aren't necessarily washing their hands and they're handling a lot of different things. And the running water, if there is any, might not be very clean.

So, what kind of standards do you use when you're eating, you know, grilled food or any food from street vendors in far away places?

RAICHLEN: Well, you know, all I can say is that I was lucky I was writing a book on grilling and not global salads because...

LAUGHTER

... I probably -- probably wouldn't be here to...

GROSS: That's right.

RAICHLEN: ... to tell you about it now. But in general, you know, I feel like grilled food would come off -- hot off the grill and so it was probably sanitized when it came off the grill. Now, in many parts of the world -- like India -- then the kabobi (ph) man very obligingly takes the meat off the skewer for you with his bare hands. So, that kind of raises another level of challenge.

I would avoid -- in Vietnam I tried to avoid eating the accompanying lettuce and mint leaves sometimes, but I -- I pretty much went for it. And I had one experience in Thailand. I was taken to an Easaren (ph) restaurant. Now, the Easaren are the people on the Laotian border and they're the kind of poorest members of Thai society. And they do a lot of grilling in Bangkok.

And I was taken to an Easaren neighborhood that -- it really was like a scene in "The Jungle." I mean, dogs lying in the streets and babies being washed on the sidewalks. And you know, this in the middle of Bangkok.

I was taken to a restaurant. It had a dirt floor. And I was the guest of honor. They even turned on the air conditioning for me. I mean, extraordinary -- and I happened to wander into the kitchen, and this was a windowless kitchen that overlooked a stagnant canal with dead animals in it, and it was really -- it was a scene -- it was a hygiene that probably hasn't been seen in Europe since the Middle Ages.

And I thought: I'm never going to make it through this meal without getting sick. But because they had gone to such trouble for me, I ate everything and I ate it with gusto. And I didn't get sick. I mean, nobody was more surprised than I was at that point.

GROSS: Although we associate grilling and barbecuing most with meat, grilled vegetables can be very good. And you have a whole chapter on grilled vegetables. Were there places around the world that seem to specialize in grilled vegetables?

RAICHLEN: Absolutely. And that was one of the most important reasons that I went to India, because India has a huge vegetarian population. What I didn't know is to what extent Indian grill chefs go to accommodate their vegetarian clients.

There's a kabob called a sikabob (ph), and basically, traditionally it's a ground meat kabob, and instead of forcing the ground meat into a sausage casing to make a sausage, they mold it onto a flat skewer to make sort of a skinless sausage.

Well, at the -- the Sheraton Rajputana (ph) Hotel in Jaipur, which has a very big vegetarian clientele, they had come up with all sorts of interesting sikabobs, made with roasted yams; made with pureed cheese; made with spinach flavored with yellow raisins for sweetness and almonds and cashews for nuttiness; bell peppers that are stuffed with cabbage and cheese and vegetable mixtures. And then impaled on a vertical spit and cooked in a tandoor (ph) -- an Indian barbecue pit.

So -- but India wasn't the only country. Japan has an incredible tradition of grilled vegetables and grilled tofu. You visit any of the shrines or temples in Tokyo, and there will be stalls outside serving grilled rice cakes that are brushed with teriyaki sauce, or imodoshi (ph) plum sauce.

You'll find grilled vegetables of all sorts. There was an incredible restaurant in Tokyo called "Inakaya" (ph), which is a very expensive and very theatrical grill restaurant. And they have -- it almost looks like walking into a market.

There's a huge bar with perhaps 20 different types of vegetables arrayed out in baskets. And you point -- "I want some okra; I want some taro; I want some baby bell peppers." And those will be grilled perhaps with a brushing of sesame oil and a sprinkling of salt -- nothing more -- but they are so extraordinarily flavorful.

GROSS: What tips would you give us on grilling vegetables here in the states?

RAICHLEN: Um.

GROSS: What vegetables are tastiest when grilled? And which should we not bother to try?

RAICHLEN: Well, the best vegetables for grilling are those with a high water content -- your bell peppers, endive, vegetables like asparagus. Okra is absolutely delicious grilled; best way I know to make okra is by grilling.

In terms of flavoring, keep it real simple. You know, a brushing of extra-virgin olive oil or sesame oil, which I like; a sprinkle of salt and pepper; maybe a squeeze of lemon juice -- work over a high heat. You know, almost everything tastes better grilled, but there is no better way to cook vegetables than grilling. Of this I'm convinced.

The only vegetables that don't work well on the grill are kind of hard-starchy vegetables -- beets, potatoes -- they can be grilled, but you need to use the indirect method; bury the vegetables in coals.

GROSS: Steve Raichlen is my guest, and he's the author of the new book The Barbecue Bible.

I'm interested in hearing more about your adventures on the road. Let's just start with the basics of health. You know, people don't want to get travelers disease when they're on the road. You're eating for a living. What -- what kind of pills and remedies do you take with you in case you eat the wrong thing?

RAICHLEN: Well, I take Pepto-Bismol. I took, I think it was Lo-Modal (ph) or you know, one of those anti-diarrheal medicines. And that was pretty much it. You know, like I say, I mean, first of all, you are going to get sick. You know, that's kind of part of the reality of being a food writer and traveling.

And when you go to countries like India and Vietnam, you know, you try and exercise caution in terms of not eating lettuce. I mean, this is a terrible thing to tell you, but when I was in India, sometimes I would taste things, and then when people weren't looking I would spit them out.

I mean, so I could kind of capture and memorize the flavor, but not put myself at undue peril.

GROSS: Why not the lettuce leaves? Why are you singling that out?

RAICHLEN: Well, because often lettuce leaves are washed -- I mean, always lettuce leaves are washed in local water, and that's just as bad as drinking local water.

I mean -- and, you know, I saw some pretty creepy things. In Vietnam, for example, I was eating in a restaurant and I happened to see the ice delivery, and they just take -- pick up a block of ice with tongs and set it down in the gutter.

LAUGHTER

Well, if you're the person eating -- you know, getting your icy drink made from the top of the ice cube, you're fine. But you know, if you're getting the bottom of the ice cube -- wow.

GROSS: Did you travel with hand-wipes so that you could eat under these circumstances?

RAICHLEN: Nah, nah, I didn't. You know, this will sound extremely strange and extremely unscientific, but I think that there's a good will factor that you can bring to eating and hygiene. And I was so thrilled, so many of the places I was, to be eating what I was and being shown what I was seeing that I think maybe someone sort of with a -- that didn't have that kind of attitude of enthusiasm and love...

GROSS: Would have succumbed.

RAICHLEN: Might have gotten sick more than I did.

GROSS: Well Steven Raichlen, thank you very much for talking with us.

RAICHLEN: That was just really fun, Terry.

GROSS: Steven Raichlen's new book is called The Barbecue Bible. I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Steven Raichlen
High: Food writer Steven Raichlen. His new book is "The Barbecue Bible" which includes over 500 recipes which he collected in his worldwide travels researching and tasting the way foods are barbecued in other countries. His travels took him to the Caribbean, South America, Europe, Africa, the Middle East, Asia and Australia. Raichlen wrote the award-winning cookbooks, "Miami Spice" and the "High-Flavor, Low-Fat" series.
Spec: Culture; Foods; Books; Authors; The Barbecue Bible
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1998 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1998 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: The Barbecue Bible
Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 15, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071501NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Smoke Signals
Sect: News; International
Time: 12:30

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

The new movie "Smoke Signals" is being billed as the first theatrical release written, directed and starring Native Americans. One of the stars is my guest Gary Farmer. He was born on the Six Nations reservation in Ontario.

When he starred in the 1989 film "Powwow Highway," critic Roger Ebert said it was one of the most wholly convincing performances he'd ever seen. Screenwriter and director Jim Jarmusch also admired Farmer's performance, and wrote a leading role for him in the film "Dead Man," which also starred Johnny Depp.

Farmer not only acts, he publishes Aboriginal Voices, the magazine of evolving Native American arts and culture. In the new film Smoke Signals, Farmer plays a middle-aged man living with his wife and son on a reservation. After his wife gives him an ultimatum to stop drinking, he takes off in his pickup truck and never comes back.

In this scene, from early in the film, he's in the pickup with his son Victor on the Fourth of July.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "SMOKE SIGNALS")

GARY FARMER, ACTOR: Happy Independence Day, Victor. You feeling independent today? I'm feeling independent. I'm feeling extra-magical today, like I could make anything disappear -- beginning with rage, you know? Poof. Wave my hand and poof -- the white people are gone -- gone back to where they belong. Poof -- London, Paris, Moscow. Poof. Poof. Poof.

LAUGHTER

Wave my hand, and the reservation is gone; the trading post and the post office; the tribal school; the pine trees and the drunks; the Catholics and the drunk Catholics. Poof. And all the little Indian boys named Victor. I'm so good, make myself disappear. Poof.

GROSS: A little later in that scene, the son accidentally spills the father's bottle of beer, and the father slugs him across the jaw.

Gary Farmer, welcome to FRESH AIR. I'm wondering what you think of your character in this movie -- someone who is both very aware and very astute, but is often blinded by anger and by alcohol?

GARY FARMER, ACTOR, DIRECTOR, PUBLISHER, "ABORIGINAL VOICES": Well, you know, it's certainly something I know. I think -- I think a lot of people, you know, in the world know about that. And it's -- you know, I didn't have to do a lot of research. It was there for me and there's something that can pull on from, you know, my own experiences.

GROSS: You mean your experiences watching other people? Or your personal experiences?

FARMER: Yeah, my childhood was -- you know, my father was, you know, very much like that character -- only he didn't leave. He -- well, he left early. I mean, he passed away young -- too young.

But you know, it was -- I mean, I think -- anyway it was something I used, and experienced, and you know, it's something I -- you know, as an adult, you're still dealing with. So it's -- it's -- you know, it's not -- I don't look at it as a negative thing. I learned a lot from that experience and it's helped me a lot, I suppose, in this -- this age. But it certainly is something I've lived through.

GROSS: The first film I saw you in was Dead Man, which was written and directed by Jim Jarmusch. I thought I'd play a scene from that film. I thought you were terrific in it. It really -- I -- this is the film where I thought: keep an eye on this guy. Wow.

LAUGHTER

So Dead Man is set in the west, and Johnny Depp plays a young man named William Blake. And he's an innocent who's been wronged every step of the way since coming to a small industrial town named "Machine" (ph).

He's been shot and is falsely accused of murdering the man who shot him. There's a bounty on his head and he's hiding out in the woods, dying slowly. You play a Native American who finds him there in the woods and believing that he's the poet William Blake, you decide to help him die a more spiritual death in keeping with Native traditions.

But you're an exile among your own people. You call yourself "Nobody" and in this scene, you explain why.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "DEAD MAN")

FARMER: My blood is mixed. My mother was Engumpi Paconi (ph). My father is Absoluka (ph). This mixture was not respected. As a small boy, I was often left to myself, so I spent many months stalking the elk people to prove I would soon become a good hunter. One day, finally, my elk relatives took pity on me and a young elk gave his life to me. With only my knife, I took his life.

As I was preparing to cut the meat, white men came upon me. They were English soldiers. I cut one with my knife, but they hit me on the head with a rifle. All went black. My spirit seemed to leave me. I was then taken east in a cage. I was taken to Toronto, then Philadelphia, and then to New York.

GROSS: He goes on to explain in that scene that when he found his way back home, the people of his tribe didn't believe his stories and they called him a liar. So, he was left to wander the Earth alone.

Gary Farmer, do you related to your character's sense of exile in this movie?

FARMER: Oh, totally. I mean, in a contemporary sense, I was, you know, I was raised in Niagara Falls and Buffalo, New York; you know, gone to school there and it was like being exiled from your people. I mean, totally -- I mean, I totally related to Nobody's experience contemporarily, with my own life.

GROSS: Did you relate to the part of being an exile even among your own people?

FARMER: Well, I am. Well, I'm not, really. I mean, my people totally accept me and are very warm and loving. And my family's there in, you know, working, living for the last 20 years. But my family -- my immediate family, we were away for the first 20 years of my life -- off, you know, off -- in the outside world.

And, you know, our community's very much -- we have a very strong orthodox, traditional aspect to our community, and it's -- they're probably more accepting than the community generally, but it's very difficult to -- you know, they still see me as somewhat of an outsider because I -- you know, I wasn't -- I mean, I was born there, but I didn't grow up there.

GROSS: So you didn't grow up on the reservation?

FARMER: No. I actually grew up in an urban environment in Niagara Falls, New York and Buffalo, New York. My father was an operating engineer, grew up with the industrial revolution of America. My grandfather dug the hole for Love Canal, if you can believe that.

That's how far we were taken away from who we were as a people. I just remember as a child dropping my father off at work, and it was just -- the sky was yellow from all the chemical companies there in Niagara Falls. Of course, Niagara Falls is a very, very sacred place to my Iroqoisian (ph) people. It's a -- you know, there's huge stories there that I'd love to tell sometime.

GROSS: What were the movies and TV westerns you grew up with that had Native American characters in them? And what impact did those have on you?

FARMER: Well, I suppose the big one was, you know, The Lone Ranger and Tonto. I mean, Tonto was from my community. I mean, I'm not sure I really understood that as a child, but...

GROSS: Was he Cayuga?

FARMER: Actually, Tonto was Mohawk. His name was Smith -- Jay Silverheels. Yeah, he was -- that was his kind of Hollywood name. And he as actually a lacrosse player -- great lacrosse player, and that's where they discovered him. The game of lacrosse has taken -- taken my people out into the world a lot, and that's how they discovered Tonto.

So I kind of grew up with him a lot, probably as -- more than anyone, I think. I can't think of any other films that had any impact on me, except that, you know, I am -- you know, you grow up looking at Indians just like everyone does -- else does, in those pictures.

GROSS: Was Jay Silverheels considered a hero where you grew up, because he really made it in Hollywood? Or was he considered more of a negative role model because he played in a western that may have had stereotype characters in them?

FARMER: No, I think our people accept -- they're so accepting. They're so happy to see their faces on TV no matter what they do, even if it's totally a stereotypical role. They're just so accepting and so happy to see someone that they know on screen.

GROSS: Now, you were telling us that you grew up near Niagara Falls, off of the reservation. And that that took you away from your people and traditions. On the other hand, would you have wanted to grow up on the reservation?

FARMER: Oh yeah. I would have loved to have grown up with my language. I would have loved to have been -- and right from the ground up, go through the ceremonial calendar that my people go through.

GROSS: How much of that ceremony was being practiced on the reservation when you were young?

FARMER: Oh, all of it. I mean, certainly not a large aspect of my community, but we do have a very, like I said, the best word I suppose is "orthodox" -- you know, we call it "down below." They're the more traditional people in our community, and they carry -- they carry our culture and have and continue to. It's about, maybe, 20, 30 percent of our community.

GROSS: Do you find that the young people who are brought up in that community stay orthodox, so to speak? Or do some of them kind of want to get out and go to the big city and become more assimilated?

FARMER: I think we -- today, you can do both. It's not a problem. I think as long as you understand your language as a base, you can go anywhere in the world and do whatever you want to do or need to do or should do.

And -- but once you have that -- that basis of language, because that language is just key to everything, in the songs, in the dances. Once you've got that, you can go anywhere in the world and do anything. And you know who you are. You know where you come from. And you know exactly where you're going.

GROSS: What was it like for you to be living on the reservation after living away from it?

FARMER: Well, you know, I mean I truly believed that that saved my life. I'm not sure if I would have stayed in America -- what would have happened to me. I certainly wouldn't have had the opportunities that I have, because the world there -- it was like "wow." It was that change.

Living in America, and especially where I grew up -- you know, I was in gangs and I grew up in the street and the street life. And to live on the reserve was great. You know, my -- we had a little gas station. And that was probably the best time with my father because we, you know, we changed tires and we had a little tire shop and we became friends.

GROSS: My guest is Gary Farmer. He's now starring in the film Smoke Signals. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

Back with Gary Farmer. He's starring in the film Smoke Signals and also costarred in Pow Wow Highway and Dead Man. And he publishes the Native American magazine Aboriginal Voices.

You know, you came of age during the time of political activism and of political activism I think on a lot of reservations as well -- you know, the Wounded Knee era when there were a lot of very militant activities organized as protests by Indians. I'm wondering how that politically active phase affected you?

FARMER: Not at all, unfortunately. That was the scary part, actually. I was in college in the states. I went to a small community college -- Genesee (ph) Community College. But I was coming directly out of that gang life into, well, the instinctual thing was to be a cop. You know, I certainly -- having somewhat of a dysfunctional life, I wanted to help somehow. I knew that.

And so I went off to school to be a cop, and then realizing how corrupt that is, I decided, no, that's not for me. Then I fell back on this thing -- photography thing that I did in high school. I had this wonderful little teacher who exposed me to black and white photography.

And I went to -- tried to get into Syracuse to get in the school of communications because I really wanted to do films. I wanted to study film and that had a great school. But I had to -- I could get education dollars from my community because I was a status (ph) Indian in Canada. But I had to study something that I couldn't study in Canada.

So I told them, look, I want to be an FBI agent. So -- this is of course during 1973, right? And I was totally unaware that Wounded Knee was going down, really. And here I was trying to be an FBI agent. But just simply to get the dollars to go to Syracuse University so I could study something that I couldn't in Canada, 'cause you can't be an FBI agent in Canada.

GROSS: So, this was like the strings attached to the scholarship you had. If they sent you to the states, you had to study something that you couldn't possibly study in Canada?

FARMER: That's right. So here I was trying to corrupt money out of the Canadian government to get my education, and trying to go into something that was actually, you know, coming down on my own people. You know, and I was somewhat unaware.

GROSS: So, how did you go from wannabe FBI agent to actor?

FARMER: Well, in the end, it all backfired on me because I ended up having to go into this kind of social science thing, and I just couldn't get on with chemistry at all. And I ended up coming back to -- brought me back to Canada because I came back and went to Ryerson (ph) and studied filmmaking and photography for a number of years.

GROSS: What made you realize that you could act? Or that you wanted to?

FARMER: You know, the last thing -- I grew up, you know, always -- I'm a fairly big man and I never thought of myself as an actor at all, ever. And it took me a few years to get over that. But you know, when I -- the first thing when I got out of school, the first gig I got was in the theater during the summer Olympics up in Montreal here in '76.

And I did this play called "On The Rim of the Curve." It was -- it was about the Beotuk (ph) people who are in Newfoundland, and they were kind of hunted down like animals up until 1860 actually. And we kind of turned that into a three-ring circus.

It was very -- almost a satire. And my mother and my family were out in the audience, and I could see that my mother was being totally affected by this play. I could see that she was crying and she was laughing. And I said: wow, this is powerful stuff.

And I realized that maybe this -- maybe this is how I can change the world. And I never turned back. My people, you know, were always -- you know, I was -- had a lot of doubts because of my size and my self-esteem was low, and I just kept at it.

GROSS: Well also, it must have been really hard to find roles. I mean, were you only given Native American roles? Or did you have the choice of any -- any role that your abilities were suited for?

FARMER: You know, for the most part, I've done Native American roles, but I've done anything. I mean, I spent the first 10 years of my career exclusively in the theater. And I did everything -- all the classics; a lot of Shakespeare; and all kinds of stuff.

So it -- you know, I really had a round -- and I took a couple of years, well one year, specifically, and really studied hard, especially in clown, which was -- you know, that changed my life. And I love clown. I mean, I don't know if you've ever seen classic clown, I suppose. I don't know whether you call it classic or not, but I love performing and you know, working with an audience and doing clown. It's just my love and it's probably the hardest thing I've ever, you know, ever done.

GROSS: You explain that during the Wounded Knee era, you were studying to become an FBI agent. It was also true that in the '60s and early '70s, being a Native American was considered very hip among a lot of white people. A lot of white people were reading about the Hopi ways and studying Native American religions and spirituality and so on, and trying to adapt what they could to their own lives.

And I'm wondering what effect that had on you? -- the idea that, you know, it was really cool to be Indian?

FARMER: That is really more prevalent now than it certainly was then. I think for most people outside the community -- I mean the experiment had almost worked, the experiment of assimilation that was carried out against indigenous people throughout the Americas, even today -- was alive and well and many of our people who were, you know, didn't think it was hip at all to be Indian -- they're doing their best to be white -- and you know, to be part of the mainstream.

And so, it wasn't necessarily too hip at all. I mean, I grew up as a single Native American person in American schools and I was the person who was called up to the front of the room and then kind of (Unintelligible) Native American section, and then you know, I had to talk. And my people worked from the time I was in grade one -- I felt a long -- and you know, for a long time -- you know, I remember there was a time when I -- I was teased and cajoled so much that I'm not sure that I wanted to be a Native American. I -- I think we all went through that period of denying who we were.

So, it may have been hip with some -- some people, but for us, it was -- you know, it was easier to survive not being Native.

GROSS: Did I understand correctly that when you were in school and you were the only Native in the school, that when the subject was Indians, you were called to the front of the class and had to talk about it?

FARMER: Well yeah. Yeah, I mean, it was pointed out to me, you know, that everyone knew it, and then you know, everyone treated me like that. I mean every -- once I was pointed out, because I probably -- I can, you know, with my facial features and my skin color's, you know, dark like a native, but I -- I can get away with being anything -- you know, Eastern European or you know, Hawaiian or Samoan. I can fit into a lot of cultures, I suppose, and you know, I -- you know, I think I spent a lot of time trying to disappear.

GROSS: Has acting helped provide you a way to learn more about your native traditions, because you do all this research for roles that you play, so you've been able to go to different tribes and learn different languages and study different spiritual rituals?

FARMER: Oh, of course. I mean, acting, you know, for anyone I think, it teaches you. I mean, acting is a tool -- you -- you never stop learning. For any actor, whether they've Native American or not, and of course also the roles I'm doing are Native American roles. So I'm certainly learning a lot more about my people and about myself all the time.

And it's been great. I mean, it's been a good life.

GROSS: Well, I wish you the best and I really want to thank you very much for talking with us.

FARMER: Oh, it's been a pleasure. Thank you so much for your interest.

GROSS: Gary Farmer is starring in the movie Smoke Signals.

Coming up, Ken Tucker reviews Dwight Yoakam's new CD.

This is FRESH AIR.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

Dateline: Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest: Gary Farmer
High: Actor, director, and publisher Gary Farmer. He is a member of the Cayuga Six Nations tribe from Canada. He stars in the new film "Smoke Signals," based on the story by Sherman Alexie. Farmer also starred in the recent Jim Jarmusch film, "Dead Man" and the 1989 film "Powwow Highway," as well as numerous other films, plays, and television shows. Farmer also is publisher of "Aboriginal Voices: The Magazine of Evolving Native American Arts & Culture."
Spec: Culture; Native Americans; Movie Industry; Books; Authors; Magazines
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1998 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1998 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Smoke Signals
Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 15, 1998
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071501NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: A Long Way Home
Sect: News; Domestic
Time: 12:55

TERRY GROSS, HOST: In the three years since Dwight Yoakam released a collection of new music, he's established himself as an actor, most notably in the film "Slingblade." You can see him now in the HBO movie "When Trumpets Fade." His new album is called "A Long Way Home." Critic Ken Tucker has a review.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "A LONG WAY HOME")

DWIGHT YOAKAM, SINGER, SINGING: I'm just the same fool
The old fool
The one fool
That you won't fool no more

At least not the way
That you fooled
The last fool you fooled before

So let the next fool
The new fool
The (unintelligible) fool
You will fool for sure

Just know that this fool
Won't be fooled
Like all those other fools
No more

KEN TUCKER, FRESH AIR COMMENTATOR: Where virtually all contemporary country music is about falling in love or suffering from a broken heart, Dwight Yoakam's country music is about falling out of love and nursing a grudge. Where all contemporary country stars, to a man, want you to think of them a good old boys, Dwight Yoakam doesn't care what you think of him. He's got better things on his mind, chiefly what he calls in this song, "Love's Curse."

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "LOVE'S CURSE")

YOAKAM, SINGING: Don't you sleep
Don't you have a single moment's peace
Just walk through the darkness
With fears that are deep
And don't you even sleep

Don't you smile
Don't you have happy thoughts for a while
'Til teardrops and sadness both go out of style
No don't you even smile

These are the things
I wish for you
Oh, deep in my heart
I hope they come true
And then you'll know
When bad turns to worse
What it's like to live under love's curse

TUCKER: That is just about the most mean-spirited country song I've heard since Johnny Cash a couple of years ago about murdering a wayward lover. And in a way, Yoakam's song is even crueler because what he wants in the curse is for the woman who spurned him to suffer a life of endless unrest and unhappiness.

There is no mercy in his music. After a litany of mental tortures, he says solemnly: Deep in my heart, how I hope they come true.

This is not a songwriter to identify with, but it is one to admire -- for his passion and his craft. On a song like "Yet To Succeed" for example, he phrases the chorus in formal language that country musicians usually try to avoid in favor of "aw shucks" slang.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "YET TO SUCCEED")

YOAKAM, SINGING: Please don't start me crying
'Cause I'll go on for days
It don't take a lot
But once it starts, it stays

Talking used to help
Lately though that just brings it on
I'll be fine
In time
But right now
I'm just trying to forget you
But I have yet to
Succeed

TUCKER: To me, what makes that song is the way Yoakam goes for the slight internal rhyme of "forget you" and "I have yet to." It makes up for the shocking lapse in logic in the last verse, a line about places that his "eyes can't bear to touch."

But even thinking about matters of prosity and sense, is more than most country singers inspire, to say nothing of just what's up in the singer's psyche.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP, "A LONG WAY HOME")

YOAKAM, SINGING: She said, baby, things change
I said, but I feel the same
She said, well let me explain
Baby, how things can change

I said but that doesn't show
How a love that could grow
Would become so strange
She said, well baby things change

She said...

TUCKER: Dwight Yoakam is a self-imposed outsider in Nashville. Lots of people call him phony and pretentious, and he's got a reputation for arrogance. He's the guy of whom Sharon Stone said: "dating him was like eating a dirt sandwich." But boy does this SOB know how to make a good country record.

GROSS: Ken Tucker is critic-at-large for Entertainment Weekly.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

Dateline: Ken Tucker; Terry Gross, Philadelphia
Guest:
High: Critic Ken Tucker reviews "A Long Way Home" the new release by Dwight Yoakam.
Spec: Music Industry; A Long Way Home
Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1998 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1998 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: A Long Way Home
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.