"Eyes Wide Shut" Doesn't Live Up to the Hype.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 16, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071601np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Sir David Attenborough Discusses Birds
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

BARBARA BOGAEV, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev.

If an adventurous life were the requirement for a knighthood, Sir David Attenborough deserves his title in spades. For the past 40 years, Attenborough has traveled to remote and exotic places around the world making television programs that explain the wonders of nature.

His television series and companion book, "Life on Earth" traces the three and a half billion-year history of evolution. "The Living Planet" examined different eco-systems. And "The Private Life of Plants" reveals just that.

Throughout his broadcasting career, Attenborough has tracked down creatures and images never before seen by Westerners, let alone captured on film. In one memorable scene from "Life on Earth," he descends into a cave in Borneo, climbs a 90-foot mound of bat guano, only to find the top is covered with, as he calmly describes, "a glistening carpet of cockroaches."

Attenborough has a new series and companion book called, "The Life of Birds." It includes footage from 42 countries and covers such topics as ancient bird evolution, flight, bird song and mating habits. The weekly series begins airing here on Tuesday July 20 on PBS stations nationwide.

I talked with David Attenborough in January when "The Life of Birds" first aired in England. I asked him why it's taken him so long to get around to such an obvious and popular topic for a nature documentary.

SIR DAVID ATTENBOROUGH, AUTHOR, "THE LIFE OF BIRDS," FILMMAKER: Well, the real truth of the matter is that I'm not a kind of "birdy" man. That is to say I have a lot of friends who are real "birders" -- the sort of people who see a flash of a wing or hear about three notes of a whistle and can immediately say what bird that is. Now, I just can't do that. I wish I could. I admire those that do it, and I can't.

But what interests me about birds is what birds do and why they do it. I have been expecting for the last 20 years that some of my birdy friends would do a series on birds, but they haven't. So, I've taken the opportunity. And the great joy is that I've learned to -- I think I can even identify some birds now.

BOGAEV: So you're "birdier" now.

ATTENBOROUGH: I'm "birdier" than I was. But seriously, I think that identifying birds are one thing, and of course it's essential really, I'm being serious. You've got to know what it is you're looking at. But as far as I'm concerned, that's just the beginning.

The exciting thing about studying birds, as indeed with any other animal, is looking at its behavior. Finding out why they do these extraordinary things, why they lay -- one kind of bird will lay their eggs in another kind of birds nest. That's what fascinates me.

BOGAEV: Now, you track down some of -- some rather bizarre modern day flightless birds who illustrate some of the characteristics of the ancient birds -- you tracked them down in New Zealand. And one of them that was surprising to me was the kiwi. It's an odd looking thing -- it really doesn't look like a bird at all. It looks like it has fur, as if its wings had fallen off.

ATTENBOROUGH: Yeah, the interesting thing is, of course, one has to examine as to why it was that birds took to the air in the first place. And I personally think that there is no doubt at all that the reason they flew, initially, as the reptiles became more and more powerful, was to escape.

It was very important to get in the air. Now, if there are no ground predators -- no ferocious animals that will eat a bird -- birds give up flying. Because flying demands a very great deal of energy. If you don't need to fly, you don't fly. And you can find lots of examples on islands around the world -- small islands where there have never been any ground predators.

Like, for example, the Galapagos cormets (ph) stopped flying. And there was one huge section of the Earth's crust that became separated from the rest of the continents just at that crucial time before the mammals developed -- just at the end of the dinosaurian (ph) period. And that was New Zealand.

And mammals never got there. Neither did the dinosaurs, in point of fact, or if they did they died out. And so suddenly the birds on those two little fragments of land, which are New Zealand, have no need to fly. And so great numbers of them -- I mean, really, dozens of different species abandoned flight and took up all the roles within the landscape that a mammal would take elsewhere. That's to say they became the equivalent of squirrels or the equivalent of badgers.

And the animal you mentioned, the kiwi -- the bird you mentioned -- is indeed the kind of avian equivalent of a badger. That is to say its feathers have turned into a very good equivalent of fur. It's nocturnal, it lives in boroughs, it -- and it feeds on worms, which it gets by probing into the ground, very like a badger.

BOGAEV: Now, many of the rare birds, at least on New Zealand, that you feature in the show don't seem to be afraid of you at all. Are they tame, since they are so unused to people -- to mammals?

ATTENBOROUGH: That is the remarkable thing. It takes quite a long time for a species that has not an in-built fear of humanity to develop that. And you would think it would take longer, really. But in fact it doesn't. I mean, even on the Galapagos and many of those places where there are animals that have evolved in isolation. They are almost suicidally tame.

And the New Zealand native birds are touchingly tame. I mean, you can go into parts of the New Zealand forest and, well, do no more than bang on the surface of a tree. And within minutes -- one or two of a particular species are prone to this or are particularly interested in getting stuff out of bark -- will suddenly appear. And they'll sit down and come within a few feet of you. It's very touching and endearing.

BOGAEV: Are their ethical considerations, then, in making the decision to invade these creature's world? I mean, I imagine it's a physical stress for the birds, at the very least, to be near a human. Is that right?

ATTENBOROUGH: I would be very sorry to think that we physically stressed any bird. I don't think we have. No, I really don't, because in point of fact if a bird is stressed it flies off and that's the end of your sequence. So, it's the last thing you want, quite apart from any fellow feeding your humanity -- humanitarian feeling you might have about a bird.

It's bad broadcasting, or it's bad filming if you stress the bird because it will simply fly away. So, no, I mean I think part of our craft as making natural history films is to make sure that the animals, whether they're birds or mammals or reptiles or whatever they are unstressed in your presence. If they're going to be stressed then you shouldn't be there.

BOGAEV: Let's talk, if we can, about bird songs. I think the first thing you learn about bird songs is that they're mating calls. But that's obviously not all they're doing when they chirp or they trill or whatever. What's going on when you walk through the woods and you hear the birds calling?

ATTENBOROUGH: Well, there are a number of different kinds of calls, of course, that birds make. And one of the kinds of calls that they make are communications among themselves. One of which is, look out there's danger. But there are two different kinds of danger -- at least two different kinds of danger calls. Because the trouble about making a danger call is that you call attention to yourself.

And so there's a category of calls and which are called "seek calls" (ph) because it's a very, very high-pitched and unobtrusive call. But which is understood by different species -- thrushes and black birds -- I'm speaking about European birds, but the same applies to American birds. They all understand a seek call as being, "watch out don't fly out of here. Keep yourself hidden, there is danger around."

There's another kind of an odd call which is one when perhaps -- a seek call is often a response to a hawk or something. If there is a cat, for example, or indeed a human being, the birds know that the cat, once they've spotted the cat, that the cat is unlikely to be able to catch them. It's only chance is to catch a bird unaware.

So they then make a very loud and continuous call which, as it were, yells through the forest and says there's danger. But also it says to the cat, in effect, "I can see you. There's no point in you wasting your time coming out because you're spotted, mate. I can fly away and you needn't bother wasting your time stalking me."

Then, of course, there is the call which you just described, which is not so much a call as, indeed, what bird watchers will call not just a call but a song, which is rather more complicated. And the song carries not only the message, as you say, which is to say why don't come and join me and be my mate. But also says to other birds of the same species don't pitch your tent here, mate because this is my patch. And this is my girl, so keep off.

BOGAEV: You write about an interesting kind of communication between bird eggs, that bird eggs talk to each other.

ATTENBOROUGH: Yes, indeed. Some -- it is very important if you nest on the ground, as some birds do -- game birds, for example, or ducks. If you nest on the ground -- predators can see, after a bit, if you're not very careful where your nest is because you have to approach in certain ways and that gets a track, and maybe there are droppings, maybe there's a smell.

The nest is being used, and the longer you use it the more dangerous -- the more chances that a predator will find it. So, what you want to do, if you're a mother bird, is to lead your brood -- your ducklings, your nestlings -- lead them away from the nest to somewhere else which is safer and new and where they might find some food as soon as you can.

Now, if you're going to do that then it is very advantageous that all the eggs should hatch at the same time. But of course all the eggs aren't laid at the same time. A duck can't lay 12 eggs simultaneously. So they're laid at a days distance or maybe even more.

So, therefore, if they're all going to hatch at the same time they have to develop at different rates. And eggs make little clicking noises as the birds develop and exercise their lungs. And these eggs -- these noises are heard -- you can demonstrate by using recordings -- are heard by other eggs which will, according to the frequency of the clicks, will either speed up or slow down. So that eventually all the eggs hatch at the same time.

BOGAEV: You have some amazing footage of bird's nests. I like the tailorbird of India. They sew their nests using their beak as a needle. How does that work?

ATTENBOROUGH: Well, you've just got to see it to believe it. Because if I describe in words you'd say, come on, do me a favor that can't possibly work. How could -- how could a bird snip a fiber from a leaf then fly across, bore a hole in the edge of a leaf, thread the fiber through then put it through another hole. Tie a knot at the end of it and pull it tight, and then bring the fiber around and do that yet again until all the way down so that it ties the leaf together. You'd say, "do me a favor. That is not possible." All I can say is the bird -- the tailorbird does it. And it's breathtaking to watch.

BOGAEV: Naturalist David Attenborough. His weekly TV series, "The Life of Birds," begins airing this Tuesday on PBS stations across the country. We'll hear more of our conversation after this break.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

BOGAEV: Back with broadcaster and writer David Attenborough. He has a new book, "The Life of Birds." It's based on his new television series about birds.

You go to some of the remotest places on Earth to film your documentaries. Have you run up against situations in which your kind of high-tech, bureaucratic BBC world clashed with the surroundings you found yourself in? How, for instance, do people get in touch with you in the deepest darkest jungle?

ATTENBOROUGH: Well, it's a mixed blessing of course, isn't it? I mean, I've been doing this kind of business for, well, for 40-odd years. And in the old days, one used to get a cameraman friend and you and he would get in a canoe in Borneo and you would wave to somebody or other and then paddle off up the river, and you'd be gone for four months.

And one would be living with -- in long houses with (unintelligible) families, and you get up in the morning and think well, there must be something that's going to happen. I mean, we'll just wonder about and point our camera at whatever we happen to find.

And you would live there for three months and come back with a certain quantity of film and hope to goodness that you're going to be able to construct something out of it. The world is not like that any more.

Now, thanks to American technology above any other. Of course, you have a thing which is the size of a briefcase and you just open it and put it on your lap. And you open the lid and you take a compass bearing and you point it at the nearest -- where you know the nearest satellite is likely to be. And then you just dial your wife or your boss or the film editor to ask him how things were.

And so you can be in daily contact if you want to be. And the awful thing is that they can be in contact with you, which is not nearly so much fun.

BOGAEV: Now, the early days of the BBC must have been quite a low-budget affair. Did you run into some seedy situations then in those weeks on the road? Bed bugs?

ATTENBOROUGH: Oh, low budget. You're dead right with low budget. No, when I said getting into a canoe and paddling off and just living in whatever happens -- the tribal people you happen to meet. That's what it was. And that is, between you and me, that of course is still about the nicest way you can do it.

And you eat what they eat. And they are very hospitable and generous. And providing you sleep in the way that they sleep. And eat what they eat. And you go out with their hunters and you go out to look for those birds which they know where they are. You have just a great time.

There's no idea that you're living on caviar or down beds or fancy toiletries or these curious pressure baths. That doesn't happen.

BOGAEV: Now, you're programs don't get heavy-handed about environmental issues. Of course, you mention, whenever it's relevant, how humans have negatively affected the birds or whatever animals you're looking at. But you don't end each program with a true green message. What line do you try to walk in terms of affecting social change with these natural history shows?

ATTENBOROUGH: Well, my job, I believe, is to tell people about the reality of animals. To tell people that we are blessed by living in an extraordinarily rich and fascinating world with a marvelous variety of extraordinary and beautiful things -- and fascinating things.

Now, unless people are convinced that that is the case, unless they're convinced that the world is fascinating, rich and beautiful -- and unless they understand that we are a part of it and dependent upon it. When someone comes along and says, don't fell that forest to make paper or whatever, because there are important things in it -- unless they are convinced of the first thing I described they will say, well, why shouldn't we fell it.

The conservation begins in understanding the value and importance and significance of the natural world. That, I regard, as my primary job as a broadcaster. In private, I spend as much time working for conservation organizations as I do in my professional life. And I don't think I've ever done a series in which I haven't, at some stage, ended the whole series maybe by talking about that particular issue.

But the first job and the most important job, as far as I'm concerned, is convincing a population of the world which is becoming increasingly urbanized, increasingly town dwellers, increasingly cut off from the natural world. The natural world is crucial to our survival.

BOGAEV: I'm talking with David Attenborough. He's a longtime television producer and writer about the natural world. He's known for his documentary's, "Life on Earth," "The Trials of Life," "The Private Life of Plants." His new series is "The Life of Birds."

I'm curious if you have the experience of people in unlikely places or professions talking to you about scientific topics that they saw you exploring on TV. I mean, do bus drivers just recognize you and ask about archeotrics (ph).

ATTENBOROUGH: Yeah. They say, well, what about altruism, Dave, they say. What do you mean? I mean, what about these animals? Doesn't that destroy Darwinism? They say to me. They do.

BOGAEV: I think I read somewhere that your local Bobby's (ph) -- your local police -- would come to you and interrupt your dinner and drag you out somewhere to identify an adder.

ATTENBOROUGH: Well, worse than adders -- I have on occasion been summoned -- I mean, I've been seen on television picking up a snake or something so that -- I mean, you'll get a call from the police saying, "excuse me sir, but we've got a bit of a problem. One of our public has noticed a snake sunning itself on the top of a wall. I wonder if you could give us a hand." So you go over.

And the last time it happened, I found a snake, I think it was about five feet long -- wonderful, handsome, black -- ebony black, but with golden rings around it. Now there are two kinds of snakes like that. One is the banded cripe, which is one bite and it's a death job. And the other is a mango snake, which is back fanged. That's to say, although it has got slightly poisonous fangs it doesn't really bite and it's perfectly all right. And it's a very common pet.

I said, "well, officer that's what we call a mango snake. So, hang on I'll get a small twig and I'll place it on the back of its neck and pick it up. And then if you've got a bag I'll drop it in the bag." Which is what duly happened. And a fortnight later I discovered -- they rang me up again and said we discovered where your snake came from, sir. There's a man who is illegally importing banded cripes, he said.

So that was so much for my herpetological expertise. I nearly had heart failure.

BOGAEV: It could have been the end.

ATTENBOROUGH: Yes, it could.

BOGAEV: Is there an animal that you just dream of encountering in the wild that you haven't yet?

ATTENBOROUGH: Yes, I am besotted with birds of paradise. There are 42 different species of birds of paradise. They're all extraordinarily different from one another. They are mind-blowingly beautiful and interesting. I think I've only seen 27.

BOGAEV: So, you have become a "birder" after all?

ATTENBOROUGH: Birds of paradise are different. You don't have to be a "birder" to be intoxicated by birds of paradise. I've been intoxicated with birds of paradise since I was eight.

BOGAEV: Well, we'll let you off then.

LAUGHTER

ATTENBOROUGH: Thank you very much.

BOGAEV: Thanks very much, David Attenborough. I really enjoyed talking to you today.

ATTENBOROUGH: Thank you.

BOGAEV: David Attenborough's TV series, "The Life of Birds," begins airing this Tuesday on PBS stations nationwide.

I'm Barbara Bogaev, and this is FRESH AIR.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Barbara Bogaev, Washington, D.C.
Guest: Sir David Attenborough
High: Renowned naturalist and film maker Sir David Attenborough. In January, his book "The Life of Birds" was released. It's a companion to a new 10-part PBS series which begins airing Tuesday 7/20/99. In the series he examines birds from rain forests to desert, to cities and isolated wildernesses, the flying and the flightless, the seed eaters and the meat- eaters. The series was broadcast on the BBC last fall. Most recently he has just returned from the North Sea off the coast of Scotland doing research for one of his next major projects: a comprehensive study of mammals.
Spec: Animals; Television and Radio; Lifestyle; Culture; David Attenborough

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 16, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071601np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Sir David Attenborough Discusses Birds

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 16, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071602NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: The Grande Dame of French Cinema
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:30

BARBARA BOGAEV, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Barbara Bogaev in for Terry Gross.

Here in the United States Francois Truffaut's "Jules and Jim" is perhaps the most well-known film of the French New Wave. It's being re-released this July and will tour selected theaters around the country until December.

It stars Jeanne Moreau as a bohemian woman who is adored by two men. Moreau also starred in Truffaut's "The Bride Wore Black," Bunuel's "Diary of a Chamber Maid" and Orson Welles' "The Trial."

She became an international icon with the rise of the new wave directors in the '50s. Their work broke many film conventions. As we'll hear, Jeanne Moreau broke the rules on screen and off. Moreau made about 90 films over the course of her career. Last year she was honored with a special gala tribute by the Academy of Motion Picture Arts and Sciences for her 50 years in film.

Terry spoke with Jeanne Moreau in 1993 and asked her if she identified with the role of an unconventional woman stuck in a conventional place.

JEANNE MOREAU, ACTRESS: Well, maybe. Maybe, it happens. I mean, the way I was I brought up and the surrounding, the family. It's true that once I've decided I would be an actress then I -- the doors opened up. It was not easy because my father was violent -- violently against it.

And though I still have very close links with my father's family and my mother's family; it's true that I am considered like a -- an original.

TERRY GROSS, HOST: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: See what I mean?

GROSS: Yeah. Yeah. When you -- did you mean your father was violent or just violently against your career.

MOREAU: No, he was -- at one point he was physically violent, but now time has passed by and he's not here anymore. And if I think about the way he was brought up, his background, a peasant family in the province of France; I understand why he was so violent and why he reacted that way.

GROSS: Did he physically try to stop you from acting?

MOREAU: No, he just hit me. And I went away.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: That's all. But -- and in (unintelligible). I mean, it was a time when in his family and this kind of a society, being an artist, an actress, was being a whore, you know. Sort of it was the equivalent of prostitution.

GROSS: You have a wonderful quote in the press kit for "The Summer House." You said, "I have fought and shunned convention and routine all my life."

MOREAU: Mmm-hmm.

GROSS: "Breaking the rules fascinates me." What are some of the conventions that you feel you've broken during...

MOREAU: ... well, one of them we just spoke about. And breaking the rules, it's something natural. Because the rules have been adapted
to make society calmer and better organized; the rules of marriage, the rules of all sorts of things.

And as long as you break the rules but you don't hurt other people it can be good.

GROSS: Well, I think you've lived your life a step ahead of the times. For example, the first time you got married, you got married just a few days before you gave birth to your child.

MOREAU: Oh, the day before.

GROSS: The day before.

MOREAU: The day before.

GROSS: And...

MOREAU: ... but that's not breaking the rules, it's just that we didn't want to get married. And then we complied because the families were so worried because of the name of the child. So, at the last moment we said yes just to please the others.

GROSS: And you've had lovers over the years who you didn't marry.

MOREAU: Well, I'm not the only one.

GROSS: Absolutely. But...

MOREAU: ... but I didn't marry each time, that's the difference.

GROSS: Right. Right. But do you fell that the times have caught up to you? That you were ahead of the times?

MOREAU: It's a very personal approach to life. I don't know if things have changed so much.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: Besides, excuse me...

GROSS: ... yeah...

MOREAU: ... and besides there are other things that -- I've never been promiscuous.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: I've just always let my heart speak. And came close to people who wanted to be close to me. I didn't expect to be scandalous just for the sake of scandal.

GROSS: Were there consequences that you feel you paid during your life, either in your personal life or in your career, as a result of having broken certain social conventions?

MOREAU: Well, let's see. Well, maybe at some point some people considered me as an outsider. But as I didn't mix with that sort of people I didn't mind, really. So, I think even if I had to pay some price it didn't hurt me really because deeply rooted in me was the belief that I had to be true to myself or true to that inner voice.

I don't relate only with material things. I don't only rely on what I see and what I hear, I'm always -- I try always to be very closely in relationship with my intuition. And what is beyond what is seen, what is heard and what is shown.

I believe in the life of the spirit.

GROSS: You starred in the early films of Louis Malle.

MOREAU: The first film.

GROSS: First film, yeah, like "Elevator to the Gallows," and then his film "The Lovers."

MOREAU: Mmm-hmm.

GROSS: You starred in Truffaut's early film "Jules and Jim."

MOREAU: Mmm-hmm.

GROSS: And then "The Bride Wore Black." You had been in at least one film before that, or in several films before that. Was it different to work with the new wave directors than it was to work in your earlier films?

MOREAU: It was totally different. In fact I started filming at the same times I started acting on stage. I'm born -- I'm from the stage. My only ambition was to be on stage. I had never seen film, it was forbidden. It was considered scandalous. I was not allowed to go to see films and I was not allowed to read the newspapers. That's the way I was brought up.

So, I started filming, and I must say the new wave brought about a total different approach. A total freedom. The old films I had made, I never met the director; I was contacted by the producer. I would meet the costume designer, the cameraman, and then maybe two or three days before the first day of shoot I would have a meeting with the director.

The directors on set -- on the set -- besides Jacques Bicar (ph), who is not well known here, but was a great, great film director; they never gave an explanation, never asked something special. And I remember one day I approached the director and I said, "well, please tell me exactly what you would like me to do in that scene."

And the man looked at me and he said, "well, aren't you an actress?" I said yes. "Well, you were hired to act, just do it." So, you know, I was quite flabbergasted because on stage in the theater the committee (unintelligible) was very, very different.

And when I was approached by Louis Malle, at the time I was doing "Cat on Hot Tin Roof," Tennessee Williams, on stage directed by Peter Brook (ph). A very young man came to visit me with his two producers. And he was 24 and I was 29.

And he came up and he explained to me what sort of film he wanted to do, very small budget, very small crew; hand camera; no makeup; shooting with a very light electrical group in the Champs Elysees at night.

Oh, thought, God, is that marvelous? No makeup. Because the big problem, I didn't look like any of the stars at the time. I was supposed to be not very good looking. I had -- there were signs under my eyes, a drooping mouth, and it took hours to make me up.

GROSS: Did they try to make you look more conventional when they made you up?

MOREAU: Yeah, I mean, everything had to be raised. And when I looked at myself in the mirror, good God.

LAUGHTER

And then suddenly that was freedom, you know, just a base and a little powder and I just had to look myself, that's all. And that was a great change, and the fact that it was a very small crew meant that there were no delays. We were moving on.

GROSS: It must have been interesting to you to go from a family that forbade you to read newspapers and forbade you to see movies because they thought it was trashy and they thought acting was like prostitution.

MOREAU: Yeah.

GROSS: Now you were working with a director who was incredibly serious about film, and who saw film as a great art form, as I'm sure you did too.

MOREAU: Yeah.

GROSS: Did that change your whole perception of the world?

MOREAU: It did -- well, I knew -- I knew it must have been like that. But I do not regret the first films I did.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: Because later on rarely it happened to me to work with people that were less talented than all the names you've given. And at least I could be in charge of myself, you know. I had a knowledge of the camera, of the lenses, of tracks, of movements, of what was technically cinema was about. And I could be in charge of myself.

But it's true that opening up with the new wave confirmed what I was seeking for -- and there's something very, very strange.

GROSS: What?

MOREAU: While talking with you, I'm thinking about how my father was violently against -- in fact, now he's gone since about 10 years. I discovered while speaking with you that all my life I always try to prove to him that I was right.

You know, it's funny -- it, really, it gave me such an impulse. In fact, it helped me.

GROSS: To take movies that seriously to help prove that you were right.

MOREAU: And it taught me that he was -- that he reacted so violently. It gave me the drive to resist. I resisted him. And now he's gone. I'm grateful. I thank him. He made things difficult, but then it forced me to go further, you know.

GROSS: Further and deeper.

MOREAU: Yeah, and deeper. I wanted to be amongst the best.

BOGAEV: We're featuring Terry's 1993 interview with French actress Jeanne Moreau. More after this short break.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

BOGAEV: Back with French actress Jeanne Moreau. Terry spoke with her in 1993.

GROSS: In the second movie that you made with Louis Malle, "The Lovers," there's a long and very sensual, very romantic scene toward the end of the film.

MOREAU: Oh, yeah.

GROSS: In which you meet a man, and after a little bit of like resistance the two of you sort of like fall in love and take a long walk through the...

MOREAU: ... they make love everywhere and they make love all night long.

GROSS: Right. Right.

MOREAU: And it's very kind of you to say it's romantic. Now it's considered as romantic, I mean, compared to what one is able to see in films. But when it came out in the '60s it was considered a real scandal. There are some countries where it was forbidden.

GROSS: Well, the camera, you know, it's very clear that the couple is making love, but the camera is on her face and on your hands the whole time. And through the movements of your hands and the expression on your face, you know exactly what's happening although you don't see it.

MOREAU: I think we should go back to that nowadays. I'm fed up with seeing buttocks and things, you know.

GROSS: What did you think of this scene when it was shot? Did you feel that it crossed a boundary that it shouldn't have crossed, or did you think it was beautiful?

MOREAU: No, it didn't come to my mind. My main preoccupation was my relationship with Louis Malle at the time. We were lovers and I was, I mean, I was passionately in love with him. And immediately we started the film.

I had a very strange feeling -- it was as though the more I would give to Louis Malle as a director, the more I would open up to that character on screen, the less would be left of our personal relationship. You know, you understand what I mean?

I don't know how you call those things that counts the time, those strange little objects.

GROSS: An hourglass?

MOREAU: Yeah. And I had the impression that as the sand was falling on the lower part then the last sand -- grain of sand -- would be the end of our relationship. And I was right.

GROSS: Why did you think that...

MOREAU: ... I don't know...

GROSS: ... acting out love in front of the camera as Malle directed...

MOREAU: ... because I was giving up something that was very personal and secret and intimate between me and him.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: And it's as though it was sacred. And I had the impression giving it to him as a film director to go exactly where he wanted to go as a filmmaker, and I had to pay the price. Maybe it's my Christian background, you know, Catholic background, but it worked that way.

So, I didn't bother to think about is it going to be scandalous or what, no. I wanted to be as close to the truth through beautiful truth of lovemaking and sensuality. And I say sensuality, I do not say sexuality.

Because the thing I regret nowadays it's that sex has deprived how people relate to sex of their beauties, of that sacred spiritual, beautiful glory of each human being. Just to be considered like a piece of meat, a slice of steak. What is great in making love, it's that you mix both: the senses and the love and that's it.

So, I didn't think about scandal.

GROSS: Do you think that Louis Malle had the same fears that somehow making a movie would end the real relationship?

MOREAU: Yes. Later on we spoke about it. And he said that he felt the same. And I asked for something, usually I'm never keen on asking things -- special things to be on the set, or in a frame in a film. At the end of the film when she leaves the house with her lover, she's in one of those old little French cars, and they cross the landscape.

And on the left side there's a white horse. And I asked for the white horse, because when I was a child my grandmother and mother when they saw a white horse they would spit on the floor and say, "white horse, white horse, give me good luck. Good luck to me, good luck to you. And good luck to every white horse like you."

And I wanted the last image to be goodbye to that love, but at the same time good luck to the white horse. And to me.

GROSS: Was it worth the sacrifice of a relationship to make a great film?

MOREAU: Of course. It was not a sacrifice. It was symbolic. Because no love lasts as long as that, you know. And we had a beautiful love and now we are great friends. And it ended there and we made not only these two films, but later on he had another lover, I had another lover; it came up and he asked me to play a part in another film of his.

GROSS: I want to get back to your childhood. You told us that your father was dead set against you becoming an actress, that acting was like prostitution to him. Did he ever say to you, you're actually a really good actress and you've made some fine films?

MOREAU: Never.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

MOREAU: Never. He was proud when I had an official decoration, you know, the Legion of Honor and things like that.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

MOREAU: But he used to say, "I can't understand. What has she got that is so special?" He thought I was a very good cook. That he appreciated. And it's true, I'm a very good cook. That was his limit. I had to do things with my hands.

GROSS: Uh-huh.

MOREAU: And I did.

GROSS: Now, you're living in France now?

MOREAU: I'm living in Paris.

GROSS: Paris. Ok.

MOREAU: I'm living alone, and...

GROSS: ... do you like living alone?

MOREAU: I need it.

GROSS: There are a lot of pleasures in living alone, what do you enjoy about it?

MOREAU: The freedom to ask somebody to share my solitude.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: That's very nicely put.

MOREAU: Yeah. And so good sometimes just to spread one's self in one's bed. Get up at whatever time you wish. There are lots of pleasures.

BOGAEV: Actress Jeanne Moreau from a 1993 interview with Terry Gross. She starred in Francois Truffaut's "Jules and Jim," which is being re-released this month and will tour selected theaters nationwide until the end of the year.

This is FRESH AIR.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Terry Gross, Washington, D.C.
Guest: Jeanne Moreau
High: French film legend Jeanne Moreau. She's been called the Grande Dame of French cinema. Her breakthrough came in 1958 when Louis Malle, one of the instigators of the "New Wave" of French cinema, gave her an important role in his first feature film, Ascenseur pour l'Echafaud. The actress and director fell in love during the making of the film, and Malle wrote his second film, the erotic classic Les Amants especially for her. In the 1960's, she used her star power to work with the European directors she most admired, Brook, Buneul, and Truffaut. Beginning this month, Winstar Cinema is re-releasing 11 Truffaut films for limited theatrical release. This includes the acclaimed film "Jules and Jim" which starred Jeanne Moreau.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Lifestyle; Culture; Jeanne Moreau

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: The Grande Dame of French Cinema

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JULY 16, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 071603NP.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: Review of "Eyes Wide Shut"
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:50

BARBARA BOGAEV, HOST: "Eyes Wide Shut" is the final film by the late director Stanley Kubrick, his first film in more than 10 years. It's a thriller about sexual obsession starring Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman. Film critic John Powers asks if the film lives up to the hype.

JOHN POWERS, FILM CRITIC: The late Stanley Kubrick didn't merely make movies, he made cultural touchstones: "Dr. Strangelove," "2001," "A Clockwork Orange," "The Shining." Over the years he became hailed as one of filmmaking's cosmic geniuses, a reputation that his fans embraced with religious fervor.

Give Kubrick a bad review, and you were barraged with letters whose gist was always the same. "How dare you find fault with an artist whose consciousness is so vast that you couldn't begin to understand it."

I suspect his fans will be working overtime to defend "Eyes Wide Shut", comes whooshing into theaters amidst a typhoon of misleading hype. "Is `Eyes Wide Shut' the sexiest movie ever?" asks one magazine cover. For the record, the answer is no.

This is a movie about eroticism by a man who has no instinct for it. "Eyes Wide Shut" is a bizarrely faithful adaptation of Arthur Schnitzler's "Dream Story." A rather fusty 1926 novella about the libidinous desires boiling beneath the placid surface of middle class life.

Tom Cruise stars as William Harford, a prosperous Manhattan doctor with a seemingly happy marriage to his wife Alice, played by Cruise's real-life wife Nicole Kidman. As the movie begins they're going out to a posh party where they both reveal obvious sexual interest in other people.

Back home, they get into an argument.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM THE FILM "EYES WIDE SHUT")

TOM CRUISE, ACTOR: I'll tell you what I do know is you got a little stoned tonight. You've been trying to pick a fight with me. And now you're trying to make me jealous.

NICOLE KIDMAN, ACTRESS: But you're not the jealous type, are you?

CRUISE: No, I'm not.

KIDMAN: You've never been jealous about me, have you?

CRUISE: No, I haven't.

KIDMAN: And why haven't you ever been jealous about me?

CRUISE: Well, I don't know, Alice. Maybe because you're my wife. Maybe because you're the mother of my child, and I know you would never be unfaithful to me.

KIDMAN: You are very, very sure of yourself, aren't you.

CRUISE: No, I'm sure of you.

POWERS: Haunted by his sudden realization that Alice may fantasize about other men, a preposterously belated discovery for a man his age, Cruise throws himself into the Manhattan night wandering through a series of adventures involving streetwalkers, mysterious disappearances and deaths. And in the movie's biggest set piece, a vast mansion-bound orgy where everyone wears masks.

This night journey leads him and Alice to a new understanding of their marriage, but only after Sydney Pollack's character shows up in the final reel to explain all the story's ambiguities to the audience. An artistic strategy which makes "Eyes Wide Shut" more old-fashioned than Schnitzler's deliberately elusive 70-year-old novella.

Like all of Kubrick's films, "Eyes Wide Shut" is filled with pleasures; from the production design, which gives '90s Manhattan a hint of fantasy a la Vienna (ph) to the superb performance by Nicole Kidman. Whereas Cruise struggles against his sleep-good looks, never quite registering the inner depths that Harford is supposed to plum.

Her performance as Alice is almost too emotionally potent; flirty, maternal, angry, licentious and willing to show her body to breathtaking effect, Kidman gives a performance far richer, braver and more contemporary than the rest of the movie. I kept wishing that the movie was about Alice not her plodding husband.

Although Kubrick has always been good at creating surreal worlds, think of the hotel in "The Shining," his magic fails him here. That's probably because he has little fresh or interesting to say about sexual life. Nor does he have the gift for staging erotic material.

Much of what passes for hot stuff in this movie is either laughable in its pseudo-decadence or straight from the pages of a nudie magazine. Sadly, "Eyes Wide Shut" feels like an old man's sex film, the hippest movie of 1899.

Rather than evoke the carnal pull of sexual longing, the movie's torn between Kubrick's obvious delight in eyeing naked women, the camera lingers on their bodies, and feeling that sex, especially non-marital sex, is somehow dirty, even sinful. For all its nudity, the movie is very conservative. It's family values with pubic hair.

It thinks it's a bad, bad thing for Harford and Alice to harbor secret desires even though they never act on them. Ever since I saw the film people have been asking me if it's worth going. My answer is of course, it's a Kubrick movie. Which means in this case that it's a special event as well as a disappointment.

Compared to routine Hollywood product like "The General's Daughter," "Eyes Wide Shut" looks quite good. But measured against the portraits of erotic obsession that Kubrick's reputation demands it be measured against, movies like "Persona," "Last Tango in Paris," "In the Realm of the Senses" or "Blue Velvet;" it falls far short.

Not that the American audience can know this for sure. Thanks to the nutty values of the MPAA ratings board, which finds sex more offensive than violence, and the timidity of Warner Brothers, which refuses to release an NC-17 version as well as an R rated one, Kubrick's original film has been digitally doctored to protect our innocent eyes from a few non-pornographic shots of vigorous lovemaking.

In a way, I'm not disappointed by the MPAA, it's known to be a collection of clowns, but I do find it depressing that Warner Brothers isn't giving grown up Americans the chance to see the whole film. When the studio isn't busy marketing Kubrick's genius they're evidently busy covering it up.

BOGAEV: John Powers is film critic for "Vogue."

For Terry Gross, I'm Barbara Bogaev.

This is a rush transcript. This copy may not
be in its final form and may be updated.

TO PURCHASE AN AUDIOTAPE OF THIS PIECE, PLEASE CALL 877-21FRESH
Dateline: Barbara Bogaev, Washington, D.C.
Guest: John Powers
High: Film critic John Powers reviews "Eyes Wide Shut" by the late Stanley Kubrick. It stars husband and wife team Tom Cruise and Nicole Kidman and opens nationwide today.
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Lifestyle; Culture; Stanley Kubrick; Tom Cruise; Nicole Kidman; John Powers

Please note, this is not the final feed of record
Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: Review of "Eyes Wide Shut"
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.