A Bishop and a Break-Away Group

DATE December 9, 2004 ACCOUNT NUMBER N/A
TIME 12:00 Noon-1:00 PM AUDIENCE N/A
NETWORK NPR
PROGRAM Fresh Air

Interview: Bishop Gene Robinson discusses his ordination and the
controversy in his church surrounding it
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

It's been a little over a year since my guest, Bishop Gene Robinson, became
the first openly gay man to be ordained as a bishop in the US Episcopal Church
or in the worldwide Anglican Church, which the Episcopal Church is part of.
Robinson is the bishop of New Hampshire. His ordination has been extremely
controversial within the church and led to talk of schism and realignment. In
response, the archbishop of Canterbury established the Lambeth Commission to
consider how understanding could be enhanced when serious differences threaten
to divide the church. In October, the commission published its conclusions in
the Windsor Report. We're going to talk with Bishop Robinson. A little
later, we'll hear from Bishop Robert Duncan who heads a group created in
opposition to Robinson's ordination. Bishop Robinson came out 18 years ago
and has been in a committed relationship for 16 years.

Bishop Robinson, welcome back to FRESH AIR. The last time we spoke was before
your ordination. Would you describe the day you were ordained and what the
ceremony was like for you?

Bishop GENE ROBINSON (Gay Episcopal Bishop): It was really an extraordinary
day filled with all kinds of emotion. I think the first thing I would say
about it is that the holy spirit that had been so palpable on the day of the
election was, again, palpable on that day. About 4,000 people gathered amidst
unbelievable security. There had been all kinds of death threats and we
wanted to make sure that it was a safe event for everyone. And we had some
angry protesters outside. One of the most delightful things that occurred
that day was about 300 students from the University of New Hampshire came to
be an alternate protest, to protest those who were protesting. And they stood
in the rain for all three and a half hours of the service in order to be there
to applaud people when they were leaving. It was really quite amazing. And I
think it also says a lot about the attitudes of younger people these days
about homosexuality.

I remember strapping on my bulletproof vest just before the consecration, and
yet at the same time feeling very calm. I had gotten up and said my prayers
that morning and just felt very calm. As a matter of fact, I was able to take
about an hour's nap just before going over to the consecration itself. But I
must say, strapping on the bulletproof vest, along with my partner, Mark, who
was also in a bulletproof vest, was really extraordinary to have one of the
clergy vested right behind me, actually being a bodyguard. And we had plans
for getting me out if a bomb went off or shots were fired, plans to have three
bishops lay hands on me in some secret location. So that when the day ended,
if I was still alive, I would be the bishop of New Hampshire.

So in the midst of that setting, there was this wonderful worship of God and
this great tradition of the church where some 50 bishops gathered around and
laid hands on me and made me a part of the apostolic succession. It was just
extraordinary.

GROSS: What does it say to you, the people who are appalled at your behavior
because you are a homosexual man or are--and are appalled that you have been
made a bishop, that some of those people appear--apparently would like to kill
you?

Bishop ROBINSON: It's so far from what I know and understand and believe.
It's hard to put myself in their place. But, you know, what I've said to all
of my critics is, `Come here to New Hampshire. Come and see. Come and see
the life and vitality and excitement in the church here in New Hampshire and
then decided whether this is of God or not.'

GROSS: Was it your idea to do the bulletproof vest or were you advised that
this was essential by security experts?

Bishop ROBINSON: We had some very, very helpful guidance from professional
security people.

GROSS: Mm-hmm. Does the church usually need that kind of consultation?

Bishop ROBINSON: No, not usually, but, you know, the thing that is so hard to
understand about this is the kind of visceral reaction people have to this
whole question around homosexuality. It seems to inflame people in a way that
we just don't see with other issues. And otherwise, liberal people can be
very, very conservative on this particular issue. And I think we so little
understand sexu--human sexuality in general, never mind homosexuality, in
particular, that I think it's going to be a very long time before we
understand why that is so, why the reaction can be so violent and so visceral.

GROSS: Why do you think that the country is so divided not only politically
but divided about sex? And, in fact, let's face it, sex is a political issue.
There were ballots in 11 states about homosexual marriage, and this was an
issue that was very important in the presidential election, the issue of
sexual orientation and gay marriage, and that's always put under the category
of values. Why do you think, from your prospective at the center of one of
these maelstroms--why do you think that the issue of sexuality is so potent
now, particularly the issue of homosexuality, although I should add other
sexual issues are at the center of controversy now, including abstinence
education vs. sex education, sex outside of marriage, sex before marriage.

Bishop ROBINSON: I think that one of the reasons that we are seeing this
focus on sexuality and homosexuality, in particular right now, is that the
Cold War ended and the religious right couldn't use Communists as their
whipping boy anymore and they needed another scapegoat. And I think gay and
lesbian people have become that scapegoat, and I think we saw it in this
election.

I mean, I loved Senator Barbara Boxer's term that this whole debate around gay
marriage was a weapon of mass distraction. And I think that's what it was.
`My God, we don't want to talk about this awful, awful war in Iraq. We don't
want to talk about the failing economy. We don't want to talk about this
widening gap between rich and poor. I know, let's talk about gay marriage,
and let's focus all of our anxiety and all of our fear on that issue.' I
think that's just terribly, terribly unfair.

And, you know, I have yet to meet that heterosexual couple whose marriage is
supposedly undermined by my commitment to my partner. When I try to
understand that, everyone always tells me, `Oh, no, no, no, not my marriage.
My marriage wouldn't be undermined by your relationship, but there--you know,
the institution of marriage would be.' So I have to believe that it's just
become an issue as, really, a scapegoat for all of our fears and anxieties.

GROSS: Would you describe the Anglican Church's position now as stated in the
report recently released by the Lambeth Commission? And this was a commission
convened by the archbishop of Canterbury to seek ways to heal the church in
the face of the growing split within the church over--basically over your
ordination, over the ordination of a gay bishop.

Bishop ROBINSON: Well, I think it's important to point out that this report
is not any kind of official position. As a matter of fact, this report has
not even been received by the Primus of the church who commissioned it. That
won't happen until February. So to refer to anything in this report as an
official position is actually a misnomer, although I must say that many
conservatives throughout the Anglican Communion are treating it as if it has
been adopted by some kind of representative body, which is just simply not the
case. The report is quite long and complicated. People rushed to look at the
recommendations at the end of it without really, I think, taking in some of
the really terrific theology that's in it earlier on in the report.

But I would say to you that this report is really not so much about
homosexuality or same-sex blessings, but it's really about power and authority
in the Anglican Church. Who is going to get to make decisions and what
authority will they carry? And I'm afraid, in this report, that we will so
focus on the particular recommendations at the end that we will miss the fact
that there's a group of mostly archbishops in the Anglican Communion who are
trying to change the way we have always dealt with one another in the church
and take us back to a place that has never been our tradition, which is to
have some kind of centralized curia overseeing the church. That's just never
been our tradition.

GROSS: This report recommends a moratorium on gay bishops and a moratorium on
public blessings of same-sex couples. What's your reaction to those findings?

Bishop ROBINSON: You know, on the morning that this came out, like everyone
else who was related to this story, I was sitting by my computer at 7:00 in
the morning, which was noon London time, as my printer spit out each of the 93
pages of the report. And when I got to the part about the moratorium, I have
to say, I was just kind of overwhelmed with sadness and loneliness. I had
hoped not to be out here all by myself for too much longer. And I think this
report and its recommendations for a moratorium certainly will have a chilling
effect on gay and lesbian folk who are imminently qualified, faithful,
wonderful people who would make great bishops.

I think it'll have a chilling effect on their putting their names forward and
certainly on dioceses from nominating them. But I also see this as an attempt
to keep the holy spirit kind of all boxed up and neat and tidy. And, you
know, the holy spirit is that part of God which will not be contained. And I
think good and faithful gay and lesbian folk are going to appear to search
committees to be the best nominees for bishop in some places. And so I think
the holy spirit will not be bound in that way.

GROSS: The report recommends a moratorium on public blessings of same-sex
couples. And I understand that you see a loophole in the world `public,'
public blessings of same-sex couples.

Bishop ROBINSON: Well, if I'm not mistaken, I believe it calls for a
moratorium on the authorization of public liturgies. It doesn't say that
blessings should stop. It says that dioceses and bishops should not authorize
a liturgical service for the use in those liturgies. I mean, I take the
report to mean what it actually says. And in several places, what it actually
says and how it's being spun are two very different things. So I trust my
clergy, one of whose functions is to bless all kinds of things. I trust my
clergy to bless what is appropriate to be blessed. And if that includes a
pastoral act on their part to bless the relationship of two people who love
and care for each other, want to pledge themselves to monogamy and fidelity
and a lifelong relationship, then I trust them to do that.

GROSS: This report also calls for the bishops who consecrated your ordination
to consider withdrawing from Anglican functions until they offer an expression
of regret. If this report is approved by the larger body within the Anglican
church, what kind of position would that put the bishops who did approve of
your consecration? What position would that put them in?

Bishop ROBINSON: Well, there are a couple of things wrong with that. And let
me point out that the expression of regret is for the pain caused other parts
of the Communion. And I have already, on numerous occasions, stated myself
that I--you know, I regret that this put some of our brothers and sisters in
Christ around the Anglican Communion in a very difficult spot, especially in
those places where they're in such fierce competition with Islam. But the
report does not ask us to apologize for doing what we did. It does ask us to
express our regret that those actions caused pain.

But, you know, every time the church does something prophetic, it's going to
pain someone. When we finally got behind civil rights in the '60s, it caused
a lot of pain to a lot of people who didn't understand why we were doing this.
When we began to ordain women in the '70s, it caused a lot of pain. But that
doesn't mean that the church shouldn't be doing it.

The other thing is the report does call for at least until an expression of
regret is made that they should consider withdrawing from these large
gatherings. But I don't know of a bishop who isn't sorry for the pain. That
doesn't mean that these bishops who laid hands on me will repent or apologize
for having done so, because each one of them did so out of a deep prayer life
and believing that God was leading us in this direction.

The other thing, really, very much wrong with this is, you know, the Anglican
Communion is about relationships. And how absurd for us to think that we are
going to build relationships by absenting ourselves from the conversations.
If anything, the bishops who laid hands on me should be in greater contact
with other bishops around the Anglican Communion, rather than less contact.

GROSS: Just to clarify, you've referred to the bishops who've laid hands on
you and that's a part of the ordination ceremony...

Bishop ROBINSON: That's correct.

GROSS: ...the laying on of hands of other bishops on the newly ordained
bishop.

Bishop ROBINSON: That's right.

GROSS: My guest is Bishop Gene Robinson. He's the first gay man to be
ordained a bishop in the Episcopal Church. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is Bishop Gene Robinson, and he's
the first openly gay person to be ordained within the Episcopal or Anglican
Church. He's the bishop of New Hampshire, and his ordination has been and
remains at the center of controversy within the church.

What are the odds of a schism within the church now? There's a group of
dissenting bishops who threatened to split from the Anglican Church if you
were ordained. What's your understanding of where that stands now?

Bishop ROBINSON: Prior to the release of the Windsor Report, or the Lambeth
Commission Report, they were saying that this was going to neaten all this up.
This was going to completely support them in their views, and, in fact, it did
not support them in their views. And so now they're saying that the primates'
meeting is where this is really going to be decided. But let's be clear here.
We are not a church. We're 38 primates, 38 archbishops of national churches
decide what is true and right for the Anglican Communion.

You know, the so-called instruments of unity, which are enumerated in the
Windsor Report, are virtually all bishops. I mean, the people referred to
there are some 800 people, all but 40 of whom are bishops and all but about 20
of whom are men. And, you know, the American Episcopal Church is not governed
by bishops. It is governed by bishops and clergy and laity. And not until
the general convention of 2006 will the Episcopal Church be able to respond to
this Windsor Report.

And there are things in this report that are very troubling about setting
these primates and archbishops up to rule over the church, which has never
been our tradition. In fact, the Anglican Church exists because Henry VIII
was protesting that kind of rule from Rome. So there's some very, very
disturbing things being proposed here.

GROSS: So you're criticizing the Lambeth Commission Report for proposing a
more hierarchical structure within the church?

Bishop ROBINSON: Exactly. And its view of the Episcopate is a monarchial
one, which may--and, indeed, my understanding is that it is true--in some of
these countries. But certainly the American church, from its very founding at
the time of our revolution, is incredibly democratic in nature. And our
church will not decide what it's going to do until we meet as laity, clergy
and bishops meeting together at general convention. That's something that
many of the churches across the Anglican Communion just don't comprehend.

GROSS: Have you ever seen this kind of split within your church before?

Bishop ROBINSON: Well, we've certainly had threats of a split before, most
recently with the ordination of women. And let's be clear, we are still in a
state of impaired Communion across the Anglican Communion with respect to the
ordination of women. The women bishops here in the United States would not be
recognized as bishops and would not be allowed to officiate and so on in most
of the provinces of the Anglican Communion. And yet we have held together.
We have found our unity in Jesus Christ and not in agreement about a
particular issue.

So, you know, this is really in the hands of the conservatives. I want them
in my church, I just wish they could want me in their church. You know, I've
often said we're all going to go to heaven and when we get there, we're going
to get along because God won't have it any other way, so we might as well
start practicing now.

GROSS: The American Anglican Council, which is a group of bishops who, among
other things, opposed your ordination and was threatening to split from the
Anglican Church over this. What's your understanding of their position now
about whether to leave?

Bishop ROBINSON: I think the American Anglican Council has stopped talking so
much about leaving because I think they are fearful that they could be accused
of what's called abandonment of the Communion, which are grounds for
defrocking priests and so on. And they have now begun talking about how we
have left the church. They are remaining as the true church and somehow
through the actions of my election and consecration that somehow we have
actually left the church. It's an argument that comes out of the old,
liberal, fundamentalist debate back in the '20s.

It's very astounding to me that some of these old arguments are being picked
up and used in this way. I'm going nowhere, and I hope they go nowhere. I
hope that we all come back to the table and continue talking about this. Some
of the most conservative bishops have stopped coming to the House of Bishops
meetings, for instance. I don't know how any of us can say that we are about
the ministry of reconciliation in which God calls us to when we refuse to go
to the table with one another.

GROSS: And I should mention we'll be hearing a little later from Bishop
Robert Duncan who is a member of the American Anglican Council.

Bishop ROBINSON: Yes. And, you know, Bishop Duncan is one of those who has
absented himself from our most recent meeting, and it makes me sad, it--and
it's frustrating because I believe that we can work this out if we continue to
stay in relationship with one another. But to cut off all possibility of
relationship, I think, is one of the worst things that we can do as brothers
and sisters in Christ.

GROSS: Bishop Gene Robinson is the first openly gay man to be ordained a
bishop in the Episcopal Church. He'll be back in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross and this is FRESH AIR.

(Soundbite of music)

(Announcements)

(Soundbite of music)

GROSS: Coming up, more with Bishop Gene Robinson, the first openly gay bishop
in the Episcopal Church. Then we talk with Bishop Robert Duncan who heads a
group that was formed in opposition to Bishop Robinson's ordination.

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Interview: Bishop Gene Robinson talks about the interpretation
regarding homosexuality in the Bible
TERRY GROSS, host:

This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross back with Gene Robinson, the Episcopal
Bishop of New Hampshire. Last year he became the first openly gay man to be
ordained a bishop in the Episcopal Church or in the worldwide Anglican Church,
which the Episcopal Church is part of.

We've been told by pollsters that many Americans said that values was a
defining issue for them in this past election. What does the word `values,'
the way it's been used, mean to you?

Bishop GENE ROBINSON (New Hampshire Episcopal Bishop): Well, I'm very
concerned that the religious right has appropriated the word `values' just as
they have tried to appropriate the Bible, just as they have tried to
appropriate the word `Christian.' No wonder people don't want to be
associated with the word Christian when it has come to mean, in so many
peoples' minds, what it has in terms of its conservatism.

The values that I see of Christianity are caring for the poor, for instance.
All through Scripture, both the Hebrew Scriptures and the Christian
Scriptures, we have God's preferential treatment of the poor, the care for
widows and orphans. In fact, one-sixth of all the words that Jesus speaks and
one-third of all the parables are about possessions and wealth and what a
danger it is to one's soul. We don't hear the Christian right talking about
that. Those are values that Jesus espoused along with reaching out to those
outcast by society. Jesus was always going against his own power structure in
the religious circles of his day to do the right thing for those who had been
ignored and overlooked by the culture. That's--those are Christian values,
not the so-called values of the religious right.

GROSS: I'm going to quote you a passage from the Bible that is often quoted
as an example of how the Bible teaches us to oppose homosexuality. I'm sure
you're familiar with this passage from Leviticus, "If a man also lie with
mankind as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination.
They shall surely be put to death. Their blood shall be upon them." When you
read that, what's your interpretation of that?

Bishop ROBINSON: We would have to do a whole separate show to really talk
about biblical interpretation. And by the way, one of the great things about
the Windsor Report is that it has a very good, succinct description of how
Anglicans do Scripture. We always have to ask, what did the Scripture mean to
the person who wrote it? What did it mean to those for whom it was written?
And then, only then, ask, does it have lasting meaning for us today, any kind
of binding authority on us? One of the things about that passage of
Scripture, which has just been recently beautifully exegeted by Rabbi Steven
Greenberg, `as with a woman,' the portion...

GROSS: Who, as you mentioned, is also gay?

Bishop ROBINSON: He is. He's the first openly gay Orthodox rabbi. And in
his book, "Wrestling with God and Men," he exegetes this verse, and in it
points out that the portion of that verse that says `as with a woman' has a
lot to do with a power relationship between men and women. You know, in
ancient cultures, men were raped by other men when they were conquered by a
neighboring nation, because the worst thing you could do to a man was to treat
him like a woman. So at, you know, underneath all of this homophobia is
really misogyny, and this passage has to do with a man treating another man as
he would a woman, which, in the writer's eyes, there could be nothing more of
a put-down and a disgrace to a man than that.

So, you know, there are all kinds of ways of reading that Scripture, and those
who would claim that it means just exactly what it says, it's funny you never
hear them quoting the passage from Luke, for instance, which says that in
order to be a disciple of mine--Jesus is saying, `in order to be a disciple of
mine, you must give up all your possessions.' It's funny, we never hear Jerry
Falwell preaching that bit of the word of God as meaning exactly what it says.
So this is not about the authority of Scripture. This is about the
interpretation of Scripture.

GROSS: Many of the Christians who oppose homosexuality say they don't hate
gay people; they hate homosexuality. So it's the hate the sin, love the
sinner way of looking at the issue, and I wonder how you relate to that as a
gay bishop.

Bishop ROBINSON: Well, as a gay person, first of all, I would say it feels no
different to be told that my sin is hated but I'm loved than it does just to
be told I'm hated. One's sexuality is such an important part of who one is,
you can't just separate them out that way. I think that heterosexual people
have a very difficult time understanding how that is so unless they stop to
think of what it would feel like for their friends and relations and so on to
say, `You really need to keep your heterosexual relationship, your marriage
quiet. Don't bring it up in public. Don't wear a wedding ring because that's
flaunting your sexuality.' I think they would be appalled to be told that
that was loving in any way when so much of who they are is being rejected.
And I think that's a kind of division of actions vs. being that just simply
doesn't work with sexuality.

GROSS: How have you been changed as a person, to be at the center of
controversy within your church?

Bishop ROBINSON: I have to tell you, Terry, that this experience has been
such a blessing. I mean, it's been hard. It's not easy getting death threats
and being at the center of this controversy, but I have to tell you that being
the bishop of New Hampshire has just been one of the most wonderful things
that has ever happened to me.

You know, I have to pinch myself as I go around the diocese here, whether it
be in a large, sophisticated congregation or a small congregation of people,
perhaps up on the Canadian border. And to be introduced, you know, by the
local clergy person, saying, `Well, this morning, you know, we'd love to
welcome our Bishop Gene Robinson who's here with us and, oh, yes, and his
partner, Mark Andrew. Mark, would you stand up?' And they go on as if
absolutely nothing has happened that hasn't happened for the last several
hundred centuries, and we are welcomed and loved beyond anything I could ever
have imagined, and we're getting on with the work of the Gospel. And so the
blessing of that, the just absolute delight to be in ministry with the clergy
and lay people of this diocese far overshadows anything to do with the stress
of the last 18 months, and it's doing that ministry that gets me up in the
morning and makes me look forward to the day.

GROSS: Well, I wish you a Merry Christmas, and I want to thank you so much
for talking with us.

Bishop ROBINSON: Thank you. It's just been such a pleasure to be with you
again.

GROSS: Bishop Gene Robinson is the first openly gay man to be ordained a
bishop in the Episcopal Church.

Coming up, Bishop Robert Duncan, the head of an Anglican group formed in
opposition to Bishop Robinson's ordination. This is FRESH AIR.

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Interview: Bishop Robert Duncan talks about homosexuality
TERRY GROSS, host:

Last year a group of bishops released a statement threatening to join
conservative Anglican leaders in Africa, Asia and South America and break away
from the church if Gene Robinson, an openly gay man, was ordained as a bishop
in the Episcopal Church. They did not leave the church after his ordination,
but a group was formed called the Network of Anglican Communion Diocese and
Parishes, which claims to represent the 2000 years of biblical teaching that
the church abandoned when it ordained a gay man. My guest, Bishop Robert
Duncan, is the head of this group. He's the Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh.

Bishop Duncan, welcome to FRESH AIR. After Bishop Robinson's ordination, you
said, `I will stand against the actions of this convention with everything I
have and everything I am. I have joined with many of the bishops in an appeal
to the primates of the Anglican Communion to intervene in this pastoral
emergency that has now befallen us.' What makes homosexuality so important
that it's worth possibly splitting the church in two? Why is it such a
defining issue for you?

Bishop ROBERT DUNCAN (Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh): I think it's simply
where our culture is at present in terms of sexual freedom. The latter
decades of the 20th century focused our nation in particular and the West in
general on sexual freedom, so it's that issue that happens to be assaulting
the church at the moment. It could have been any other issue. If folks were
saying that adultery is all right, or if folks were saying that lying or
stealing or whatever is something the church now needs to accept, I think we'd
be doing the same thing. It is certainly true, and Scripture recognizes this,
that human beings in their identity are so linked to that--those sexual
energies and drives that are within us that it's a particularly difficult
subject for us to keep balance on.

Again, in the New Testament, over and over again we have phrases like `to set
the mind on the flesh is death, to set the mind on the spirit is life and
health' or `put away the fleshly appetites,' and when it speaks of fleshly
appetites, we're not only talking about sexual appetites but the appetites
which are greed and gluttony and power and all the rest. At this moment, we
seem particularly hung up on sex. I wish that weren't the subject, but it's
the one that's presented to us.

GROSS: Bishop, you've compared homosexuality to lying, adultery, greed and
gluttony, but what Bishop Robinson is in is a long-term, committed, monogamous
relationship to somebody, to a man, who he cares deeply about...

Bishop DUNCAN: Absolutely.

GROSS: ...which has nothing to do with lying, adultery, greed or gluttony.

Bishop DUNCAN: Yeah. Well, what I was trying to draw--please, hear me on
this, simply draw what it is that Scripture says about the kind of sexual
relationship that Scripture approves of. And Scripture understands God to
have made the creation in two distinct parts, male and female, and so shaped
the bodies and shaped our identities. That sexual union is meant for a man
and a woman, not for a man and a man or a woman and a woman or any other
combination. The issue again here is not to condemn the individuals but to
simply say this isn't God's will.

GROSS: The Episcopal Church has re-interpreted its own doctrine over the
years. For example, the church didn't--formally did not condone the
ordination of women, but now the church does ordain women. The church had
previously not allowed divorced women who remarried to re-enter the church.
That is allowed now. Why is it that many things have been reconsidered in the
church, the doctrine has been changed to take into account the times we live
in and how culture has changed, but in this area, you think that there should
be no change at all?

Bishop DUNCAN: Let me say that the doctrine has not so much changed as the
practice, and in each of the cases that you cite, what we're--we look at
Scripture to try to figure out whether the understanding we have can be
expanded. In the case of the ordination of women, it is the case that for the
Episcopal Church, we had not ordained women, though many of the Protestant
churches had, but when you look at Scripture, there's nowhere in Scripture
that women as women are condemned. We get to the case of human sexual
relations between men or women, same sex, and you find no room in Scripture,
no evidence that will allow you to say that God approves of that kind of
sexual behavior. We might all wish it was different than this, but for the
church throughout the world, the assertion that Scripture is, in fact, the
word of God and can be trusted is what sets up this very difficult conflict
for us today and has set up this kind of conflict all through human history.

GROSS: Let me ask you if you agree with the church about the ordination of
women.

Bishop DUNCAN: I do. I've been a great supporter of the ordination of women.
We in the network and I personally have always also fought for those who held
the traditional view, which is the view held by the majority of Christians
worldwide. Since the majority, if you stack it all up, the most numerous
Christians are the Roman Catholics at nearly a billion, and add to that the
Orthodox and the biblical churches or Pentecostal churches that, in some
cases, ordain women, some cases don't. The majority of Christians still
believe that women should not be ordained as head of house. Again, as I read
Scripture, I have been supportive, but I've been supportive of those also who
hold the traditional view.

Again, part of what's going on in the Episcopal Church, part of what Bishop
Robinson's consecration represents, is an intolerance toward those who hold
traditional views. In the 1970s when women's ordination began in the
Episcopal Church, the church was promised that there'd always be space for
those who disagreed. In 1997, just 20 years after, the Episcopal Church said
that women's ordination would be mandatory everywhere. This kind of
innovation is hard to describe as anything other than kind of totalitarian
legislation within short order. It's the same thing that we've anticipated,
related to the innovations in sexual morality.

GROSS: So you think it's Bishop Robinson who's being intolerant by becoming a
bishop?

Bishop DUNCAN: No, I...

GROSS: That he's intolerant of the people...

Bishop DUNCAN: Well...

GROSS: ...who are opposed to homosexuality?

Bishop DUNCAN: It is certainly the case that there is a vast intolerance on
the left, for those of us on the conserving side, who oppose these
innovations. Leaders in the denomination have at various times made
statements that it would be just as well if we all disappeared. We don't
intend to disappear. We believe we're doing what--we are what we have always
been as Episcopalians. It's the church itself in its national leadership that
has changed.

GROSS: So...

Bishop DUNCAN: Bishop Robinson represents for us--I mean, he's a symbol, and
he would describe himself, I think, as a prophet in this regard, as one who is
leading the church, painfully--painfully at his own cost to a new future and a
new inclusion. For us, again, the issue, as was true with Jesus, is not about
the individual, 'cause God loves Gene Robinson, just as God loves me, and God
loves folks whatever their relational affections are, but God's truth is about
submitting those affections to his will, and so our case is about the
teaching, not about the individual.

GROSS: You know, I spoke to Bishop Robinson earlier, and I asked him about
that way of looking at it, you know, love the sinner, hate the sin.

Bishop DUNCAN: Yeah.

GROSS: And he said, you know, people need to understand that the way he
feels, and he assumes the way many gay people feel, is that their sexual
orientation is a part of who they are, and you can't--there's no way of loving
them and loving him and separating that part of his identity from who he is.
And he asked the question, how would it feel for a heterosexual to be loved
but to have the fact that they have a long-term relationship would be not part
of something that could be loved about them? It would be something that they
would have to either hide or denounce.

Bishop DUNCAN: Well, again, what I'm saying and what we're trying to say in
the gentlest, most graceful, most Christlike way is that we didn't make the
rules here, that God did, and that we believe God knows what he's doing, even
if at times we question it. Again, Scripture describes the human race as
fallen and all of us as sinners. And if--even if it were allowed, which,
again, is much disputed, that orientation has some genetic part of it as well
as what all would agree is an environmental part, even if it has some genetic
part, there are many genetic conditions that people have to live with, have to
work with, have to work through and work around. The church loves us in
whatever disorder or disease we may be afflicted with by the fallowness of the
creation.

GROSS: So...

Bishop DUNCAN: And that's all I can say about the affectional same-sex sort
of wiring, that it's an affectional disorder. That's--those are hard words,
but I think they're true words. They're at least consistent with the
scriptural description of who we are and how God's made the world.

GROSS: My guest is Robert Duncan, the Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh. He
heads an Anglican group formed in opposition to the ordination of Bishop Gene
Robinson, who's openly gay. We'll talk more after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

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GROSS: My guest is Robert Duncan, the Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh. He's
the moderator of a group formed in opposition to the ordination of Bishop Gene
Robinson, who is openly gay. The group is called the network of Anglican
Communion Diocese and Parishes.

You see homosexuality as an affliction or a disorder that needs to be
overcome. Many other people interpret Scripture differently than the
interpretation that you're giving. Do you think that those interpretations
have any legitimacy at all, or do you think that your interpretation is the
only acceptable one?

Bishop DUNCAN: What--the way I want to answer you, again, we take this so
much from our philosophical and cultural point in history. One thing that may
be helpful...

GROSS: Sure.

Bishop DUNCAN: ...in terms of sort of understanding the issues related to
homosexual activity, I served for 18 years on campuses of the nation, from the
University of North Carolina Chapel Hill to General Seminary in New York to
Rectory Parish at the University of Delaware, and in all those years, there
was tremendous ministry to the gay community.

One of the things that has been a heartbreak as this whole season has gone
forward are the number of very close gay friends who have left the Episcopal
Church and actually have joined the Roman Catholic Church because, as they've
said, they have tried to lead chaste lives. They're trying to lead lives
according to what they think the Bible calls them to lead, and they don't find
any more support in the Episcopal Church.

GROSS: So in other words, the--for gay people who are trying to not act on
their impulse...

Bishop DUNCAN: Yeah, that's right.

GROSS: ...you think the Episcopal Church has become too tolerant, and they
need the more...

Bishop DUNCAN: Yeah.

GROSS: ...stringent anti-gay atmosphere of the Catholic Church.

Bishop DUNCAN: Well, in many diocese because there's been this embrace of the
new teaching and the new agenda, they have felt they have had to leave the
Episcopal Church for a more conservative church just in order to try to live
basic holy lives. I grieve that the church that I'm a part of has so embraced
this other agenda that it's lost, you know, its historic balance and its
global balance with regard to this issue.

GROSS: And what about all of the people--what about all the gays and lesbians
who have joined the Episcopal Church because it is...

Bishop DUNCAN: Well...

GROSS: ...more accepting of them...

Bishop DUNCAN: Well...

GROSS: ...and what about all the people who have left the...

Bishop DUNCAN: Well, again, our sta...

GROSS: ...Roman Catholic church because...

Bishop DUNCAN: Our statistics...

GROSS: Uh-huh.

Bishop DUNCAN: ...you know, the loss in members in the Episcopal Church,
between the year 2002 and 2003, that is year-end statistics in 2003, was some
36,000 members. All the people who were supposed to come in didn't, and that
decrease in membership is three times the decrease in the previous year. This
is not working for us. All of the purported growth, the statistics don't bear
it out. Ironically, if you want to look at diocese that actually have stayed
steady or grown slightly, you have to look at diocese like Pittsburgh, where
folks are actually joining because they say that the bishop's stand is clear
and is clear for Christian transformation.

GROSS: In a sermon in August of 2003, you said, `My own blood sibling, my
sister, lived part of her life as a lesbian. She died before reaching 50.'
Your sister was a lesbian?

Bishop DUNCAN: She was a lovely girl, confused about her identity. We came
from a troubled home with, I think, a dad who didn't know how to give the
affirmation that kids need in accepting their identity, including their sexual
identity. My sister's far greater difficulty was in her alcoholism. She
often talked with me about the day that she would find a man to marry, though
most of her sexual relating was with women. I love...

GROSS: What advice did you give her?

Bishop DUNCAN: We did not talk at any length about her sexual partners.
There were a couple times that she had a longer term relationship. Again, the
focus for my sister was always on her--attempt to heal her from her alcoholism
and the--we don't--as pastors in the church, you try to get at the base
condition. What is it that is keeping you from loving yourself in such a way
that you can love others appropriately?

GROSS: Bishop Duncan, what are you preparing for Christmas Day?

Bishop DUNCAN: Preparing for worship on Christmas Eve in our cathedral and
then to gather my children and grandchildren and nieces and nephews together
in our home in Pittsburgh, where we're very much looking forward to that.

GROSS: Bishop Duncan, Merry Christmas, and thank you for your time. Thanks
for speaking with us.

Bishop DUNCAN: You're doing an important work, and I thank you for it.

GROSS: Robert Duncan is the Episcopal Bishop of Pittsburgh and the moderator
of the Network of Anglican Communion Diocese and Parishes, which was formed in
opposition to the ordination of Bishop Gene Robinson, who is openly gay. We
heard from Bishop Robinson earlier in the show.

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(Credits)

GROSS: I'm Terry Gross.
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.