Actor and Producer James Woods.

Show: FRESH AIR
Date: JANUARY 12, 1999
Time: 12:00
Tran: 011201np.217
Type: FEATURE
Head: James Woods
Sect: Entertainment
Time: 12:06

TERRY GROSS, HOST: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

James Woods has played his share of tough guys. He was a cop killer in "The Onion Field," a fearless and sometimes foolish journalist in "Salvador," and a gangster in "Once Upon a Time in America." Now he's playing a career criminal in the new movie "Another Day in Paradise."

It's based on the semi-autobiographical novel by Eddie Little, and is directed by Larry Clark who also directed the film "Kids." Woods plays Mel, a pro, who becomes a mentor for Bobby, a rookie thief, played by Vincent Cartheiser (ph). In this scene, Mel, the veteran, is beginning to take the kid under his wing. They're in Mel's car.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "ANOTHER DAY IN PARADISE")

JAMES WOODS, ACTOR: How old are you?

VINCENT CARTHEISER, ACTOR: Old enough.

WOODS: Hey, why don't you save the tough guy routine for people you might actually scare, OK? I'm not putting you down. I'm really trying to make a point. Bobby, I don't know how old you are, right? But I'm going to bet you money that you've got a driver's license that says you're 18 or 19, and I'll give you 10 to 1 it's off by two or three (expletive) years, OK?

You're doing dope all day, and you're stealing with both hands. Here's my point: you think you're a thief. You know what you are? You're a (expletive) bust waiting to happen. A pro -- a pro, OK? Only steals when he knows everything's in his favor. When he (expletive) knows he's not going to get caught.

There are only a few true professionals around. And guess what? They don't do dope. Because, see, eventually the drugs are going to make you (expletive)-up. And booya (ph), you're in the penitentiary. The thing is, for guys like us, you just try to make that run as good and as long as you can before it's over with, which it will inevitably (expletive) be. That's my point. So, how old are you?

CARTHEISER: Old enough.

WOODS: Good answer. Never plead guilty. Oh, man, tough character.

GROSS: You play Mel with a lot of charm at the beginning of the film. I mean, he really takes this younger thief under his wing and helps repair him physically. Helps him get more money. Gives him a kind of surrogate family. The charm starts to fade after a while, but describe how you saw this character of Mel.

JAMES WOODS, ACTOR: Well, it was an issue that I am fascinated by which is the equation between charm, as you say, and rightfully so, and sociopathy. I mean, I have found in my rather voracious reading about -- about many criminal types, whether they be in politics or in the world of petty crime, that often times very charming people are in fact highly sociopathic.

I mean, they use charm as a kind of negotiating ploy to lure people into their lives and their circles, and then kind of vampirize them for their own ends. And, I mean, we see it from the highest level of politics to the lowest level of street crime where, you know, very charming people find a way to enlist compatriots in their worlds of crime.

GROSS: You mention that you've done a lot of reading about sociopaths, is that because you've played so many of them?

WOODS: Well, in the process of playing them, but also, I mean, in the news I'm always fascinated by those kind of offbeat stories. I mean, whether it's, you know, politicians who pretend to care about a certain group of people, but then in fact sell them out. But keep smiling and using them as a political base, you know, to enhance their well-being in their positions of power.

Or the odd news item -- I remember I was in Hawaii once, and there was a front page article when I was -- I think I was in Oahu -- and a guy who was a crisis manager at an anger -- like institute-- it was an institute for the management of anger -- had beaten the crap out of one his clients at some point. He just got fed up with the guy and beat him almost to death, and ended up putting the guy in the hospital and he went to jail. And I just love the idea of an anger crisis management, you know, guru beating up one of his clients.

I mean, that kind of thing always fascinates me as an actor because I believe that people have a -- by and large you find that people are engaged in chronic manic denial over who they really are. So they're always rationalizing or defending a position that, in fact, is usually the opposite of how they truly behave behind closed doors or in moments when they don't feel they're being observed.

I think that there is a lot of hypocrisy in human nature in general, and it's something that as an actor I like to explore. So when you play a character like Mel in "Another Day in Paradise," you know, I love showing how charming and funny and how kind of exuberant he is about life.

And of course, that's very infectious to a young boy like the character of Bobby, you know, who says, man, this is really the life. I'm with this guy in this cool car and, you know, shooting heroin. And he's, you know, 50 years old, and he's still using and looking cool. And, you know, has a lot of money from being a thief and so on. This is the life I want. And of course, you know, he's not prepared for the violence and the disillusionment that follow.

GROSS: The movie, "Another Day in Paradise," is based on an autobiographical novel by Eddie Little. So, did you have a chance to talk with him while you were making the movie? I'm wondering if there are things you wanted to ask him about his memories of his crime mentor and what his life was like at the time.

WOODS: Yeah, I did. And, you know, it's -- I don't know if you've ever talk to recovering addicts, you know, and whether you're addicted to drugs or crime or "the life," as it's called. There's always a kind of wistfulness that these people have about, you know, the fact that it was in some ways fun.

And one of the things -- I know that sounds odd, but one of the things that we wanted to try to get across in "Another Day in Paradise" is the fact that this movie about petty crime and particularly, you know, heroin and speed addiction is that at the time you're involved in it, you know, it's a great ride. It's a joy ride.

And most movies, you know, like "Trainspotting," and so on, you know, they come into the close-up of the needle going in the arm, and the sinister music plays and, you know, it's an event. And in Larry Clark's pictures of that time in "Tulsa" -- in the book "Tulsa," and his time in Tulsa, Oklahoma -- there was one photograph that particularly caught my attention. And it was like a lot of very attractive young men sitting around in this house and they were laughing and, you know, it looked like a frat party at some college.

But in fact, if you look closely, one of the guys is shooting up, and sitting on the arm of the chair is a gun and so on. And you realize that these are just young men feeling exuberant who happen to be in a parallel universe to that which we, as sort of "normal, civilized" citizens, you know, live in.

And I said to Larry, I said, man, it looked like it was so much fun. He said, man, it was a blast. It was just great. And he said, I'll never say that it wasn't fun. It was fun. I said, by the way, where's this guy now? He said, oh, he's dead. How about that guy? Dead. How about that guy? He's in the penitentiary. I think he died -- he's dead.

And you think, nice picture. A good thing it's frozen in time, because, let me tell you, there's no future to it.

GROSS: You also are a producer of "Another Day in Paradise." Why did you want to produce the movie?

WOODS: Well, when I came aboard my partner Steven Chen (ph) and Larry were having a hard time getting the picture financed. And my participation in it as an actor, of course, made that possible. But we really wanted to go for what we thought would be the full realization of the movie's potential.

And I felt that having a -- that Mel and Sid, the woman that is his partner in crime and in life, should be very charismatic characters. And one of the reasons that you would do a film like this that, first of all, has a very documentary aura which is its strength and lends to the excitement for the audience and critics who have fallen in love with it, is the element of having a certain kind of the star charisma.

That these two people are stars to the two young kids played by Vincent Cartheiser and Natasha Gragson-Wagner (ph), who are wonderful young actors. And I came up with the idea of Melanie Griffith be my co-star, because Melanie has a kind of, you know, ever youthful sort of baby doll quality. And now the character is a woman who has really kind of hit 40 like a brick wall going a hundred miles an hour.

And Melanie had the courage to play the part that way, you know, sort of a fading Kupie doll. And we decided that having to sort of -- I hate to use the word, but from a commercial point of view -- stars playing that part made it intriguing to the young people that these were two really flashy people that they could sort of go for.

And as a producer I was able -- we had terrible time constraints because we did what's called "gap financing" where you go to a bank and say, we have this movie. We have this script. We have these elements. And we want to make this movie. And they go, great. You've got to start shooting in four weeks and you have to deliver the print in, say, six months or whatever.

And so to go through the process of trying to get a star like Melanie Griffith -- to try to get her agent to read the script -- would have been unbearable because they'd wait a month and then say, oh yeah, we had the script but it's no good. You know, because they don't want their clients to work for the kind of money that we had to offer which was virtually nothing.

So, I called Melanie personally and said I think this is a part that can win you an Academy Award, and it's a great part. And, you know actresses who are 40 and over oftentimes complain that there are no good parts because they often want to play parts where the character looks like she's 23.

I said this is a part where you're playing that horrible dilemma that faces glamorous women, and it's cruel, but it's a reality which they all acknowledge in this business. Were you're going to play a woman who is facing 40, you know, and she's a junkie, and she's a thief and she's living with this guy who is really dangerous and so on. And her life is fading.

And all of a sudden she brings in this very young beautiful girl into their sort of surrogate family, and she's got to face all of that envy and kind of strange, sort of, mother-daughter thing that goes on. And Melanie said, man, that sounds like a great part.

And as a producer I offered her half my star salary and half my participation in the picture to get her aboard. And so, you know, I was able, as a producer, to be able to use that power to get her in and as an actor, you know, as the star of the picture to be able to use the money I was getting to also make it possible for her to participate financially without taking a terrible loss. You know, because, you know, the constraints are very limited.

GROSS: If you're just joining us, my guest is James Woods. He stars in the new film "Another Day in Paradise." He's also a producer of the film. Let's take a short break, and then we'll talk some more.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: Back with James Woods. His new film is called "Another Day in Paradise."

I'd like to talk with you a little bit about the role that I think of as your breakthrough role in movies, and that's -- this was in the film "The Onion Field," where you played a sociopathic killer. Your character, Greg Powell, was a small time thief who thought of himself as a brilliant master criminal. And he and his nervous partner ended up abducting two cops and killing one of them after they stopped these two guys on the road.

I want to play a clip from "The Onion Field." In this scene your character, Greg, and his partner Jimmy are on a robbery spree. They're laying over at a motel, and after your character, Greg, has had very noisy sex with his girlfriend in the motel he comes out to the parking lot to talk to his partner Jimmy.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "THE ONION FIELD")

JAMES WOODS, ACTOR: We're going back to L.A.

FRANKLIN SEALS, ACTOR: L.A.? Jumping Jesus. One night in Las Vegas, one night in Bakersfield.

WOODS: Jimmy, we're doing OK. We bought us this cherry little hot rod, didn't we? We bought us some nice presents, and we had us some fun, didn't we?

SEALS: Fun. I got to lose 10 nickels in the damn slot machine. Greg, the last thing you said we was going to Frisco. L.A. is a two-hour drive in the wrong direction. We're moving around like damn gypsies.

WOODS: Anville (ph) you just don't understand. We are going to Frisco. But first we've got to go to L.A. and get us some money by pulling another little job there so we can go to Frisco. You understand? Now we're just going to leave the wagon here and we'll be back by midnight. OK?

Now, what you've got to do is remind me to get the brake lights fixed on that coupe because we can't get stopped by the cops with faulty brake lights. Now can we, huh? So me and my little honeybun got you stirred up there, didn't we? You know, I'm kind of a virtuoso sexually. That means I'm a master at pleasing women. She says that she can never imagine herself with another man ever again. How about that?

GROSS: James Woods, what did you do to get a sense of this guy? Of his ego, his confidence, and his lack of conscience?

WOODS: By the way, one of the ironies of that scene, for people who haven't seen that movie in quite a while, is that the character I'm talking to -- that Franklin Seals played -- Jimmy Lee Smith, had just had sex with Greg's girlfriend in the scene before. And I'm telling him about what a sexual maestro I am and so on. And how she could never imagine herself with another guy.

And of course, an hour before he has, of course, been with her. It's one of the ironies of that scene about this guy is -- you know he's such a blowhard and, of course, doesn't know anything about what's really going on.

That character was fascinating to me because he actually would put on a fake Southern accent and it was hard to do because it sounds kind of weird. It's not really a very good Southern accent, but he actually talks that way.

He tried -- he tried to be always something other than he was. And the irony, of course, from that scene is that they were stopped for having a faulty tail light and that's when they killed Ian Campbell, the police officer, and kidnapped Carl Hettinger (ph).

And it ended up the longest set of trials in the history of California jurisprudence trying to convict these guys. I think the resources of Joe Wambaugh's (ph) brilliant book, "The Onion Field," which was, as you said, the thing that he felt he was put on earth to do. To write that novel. It's a roman a clef. It's written as a true story, and it is a true story.

What was so rich, and it showed so much about this guy's insane charm. The great thing about true stories is invariably there are things that take place in those stories that you cannot imagine in real life. I mean, from the smallest detail -- and we researched the film meticulously -- there was a very funny scene in the picture where I turned to Jimmy Lee Smith -- the Smith character -- and I go, so, Jimmy how do you like my disguise? And he says Greg, what disguise?

I said, well, look, I darkened my eyebrows and I put this little mole on my earlobe, see? And of course, you know, it was like he darkened his eyebrows and put a mole on his earlobe. Well, the irony was when Carl Hettinger, later, described the assailants -- he said, one was a black guy, 5'10", or whatever. And the other was a white guy with a mole on his ear.

GROSS: A lot of people say that when you're playing a bad guy as the actor you're not supposed to focus on what's bad about him, you're supposed to get into the guy's way of thinking -- into his own self delusions and think about why this guy has such confidence. Why he thinks he's right. Were you able to do that for this cop killer when you played him?

WOODS: Well, I mean it's a tough one because you're playing a cop killer, but what I try to focus on is the fact that most killers, you know, I mean, -- sometimes actors, when they're not really doing their work, or if they don't really have that sort of extra indefinable thing it takes to -- to portray a character in a unique way. And I'll say, oh, I'm playing a killer so they're snarling around and so on.

Well, killers are killing every minute of the day. They still have to go buy groceries and get their laundry done. And I always try to think of giving a character like that a life. I mean, an entire life the way he would think about all the everyday boring details of living his life.

And then along the way, just unexpectedly, this capacity to destroy in such a horrific way just erupts. And I think that's the way it is with most sociopaths. Their approach to life is whatever's good for me is what I'll do. And whatever I need other people to do for me I will charm them into it. You have to think about the objectives or the goals that people have in mind.

There's theories of acting where you talk about having a through line to a character and a super objective and then momentary objectives throughout the beats of each scene. And the super objective of any sociopath is how do I get everything I want, all the time, and pretend to be a normal citizen when I have to get other people to do it for me?

And it becomes a real interesting exercise because most of us, you know, are other directed. I mean, to some degree, we think about other people's feelings and the consequences of our actions involving other people and so on. And, you know, I made a little bit of a raucous in the news lately when I actually referred to some of the sociopathic behavior of our current president.

And what I met was, you know, on a very specific level there are times when I thought his behavior did not consider the feelings of other people or of the consequences of his own actions. And when I hear these, to me, disgusting liberals talking about well, it was just consensual sex. Well, it's not consensual sex between two wonderful exciting young kids on their way to, you know, France after four years of college, And yeah, they have a right to sleep together if they want.

You know, it's a man cheating on his wife, very publicly, and humiliating her. And that, to me, is being of itself sociopathic behavior. So, I'm interested in that kind of behavior as a student of behavior, because as an actor that's what we study. And a lot of times people will justify or rationalize behavior, but as an actor you have to be incredibly candid and clear about what really is happening with the character. And then it's a lot easier to play it.

GROSS: Did you learn anything about your approach as an actor from your role in "The Onion Field?"

WOODS: Yeah, one of the things I think I learned is to be very detailed oriented.

GROSS: Mmm-hmm.

WOODS: And it's funny that "The Onion Field" and "Another Day in Paradise" have a lot in common. They're about that world of small crime that leads to explosively much bigger crime. You know, petty thieves doing drugs or whatever, and robbing liquor stores and that kind of thing -- in the case of "The Onion Field;" robbing a drug clinic, in the case of "Another Day in Paradise." And then murder ends up being involved.

GROSS: In both, "Another Day in Paradise" and in "The Onion Field," and in a lot of the sociopathic type roles that you've played the character has to have a lot of confidence and a lot of swagger.

WOODS: Right.

GROSS: In part because the character is often a little deluded, and also they have to convince other people to follow them.

WOODS: Well, also don't forget from his point of view -- especially a sociopath -- it's his world and everybody else is just paying rent.

GROSS: Yeah. Right. Right. Right.

WOODS: That's his focus in life. It's like he is a predator, and everything else is prey. And sometimes you have to seduce your prey. And, if you watch, you know, a lion and a Thompson gazelle, the Thompson gazelle will hop around the lion, and come just almost within striking distance. And it's almost like a game of seduction between predator and prey.

And, you know, sociopaths live for those moments, you know. And there are people who love to flirt with danger. You know, counterphobic people who love to be around dangerous people because it's exciting. And invariably they get caught up in the grinder.

GROSS: So, did you -- when you started playing roles like this did you have enough -- did you have any sense of big self-confidence or swagger in your own life that you could draw on, or were you just studying other kinds of characters?

WOODS: Well, I tell you, that's a good question. I think when you're young and maybe when you're young and in particular male, there's a kind of -- there's a greater level of what I now see as a kind of manic self-confidence that comes as a way of denying your fears.

A lot of male behavior, you know, extreme sports, war, a lot of aggression that comes naturally just from biological imprint of young males has to do with a kind of confidence that, as you get a little older and wiser, you realize is a pretty false confidence. But confidence doesn't know whether it's true or false, you just go out there and feel it until you get that first big whack on the head with a two by four from life and then you go, oh, I get it.

GROSS: When you were a young actor did you use your self-confidence and swagger to talk yourself into roles?

WOODS: Oh, yeah. Well, actually I still do that. I actually -- I don't think I've ever been right for any role I've ever played in the eyes of the people who were hiring me. I mean, it's so funny, I mean, to this day I always have -- I mean, I always get, oh, he's a great actor but he's not right for the part. As if these geniuses who make the crap that you see in the theaters every week -- as if they would know what was right, you know what I mean?

LAUGHTER

Oh, excuse me. I'm sorry. You're so brilliant. You just made, you know -- and then you open the paper. You know, they always say to people, you should pick maybe a better role. And I go, really? Name five good movies you saw last year. Five good movies. Not five great ones. Five good movies.

Nobody can do it. Nobody can name you five movies -- they make 10,000 movies a year and you can't name five that are any good.

GROSS: James Woods. He's starring in the new movie, "Another Day in Paradise." It opens January 22nd in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle. And will open in more cities in February. James Woods will be back with us in the second half of the show.

I'm Terry Gross, and this is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: This is FRESH AIR. I'm Terry Gross.

Back with James Woods. He's starring in the new movie, "Another Day in Paradise." He plays a career thief who becomes a mentor for a rookie thief. His other movies include "The Onion Field," "Salvador," "Once Upon a Time in America," Video Drome," "Joshua Then and Now," "Ghosts of Mississippi," and "Casino."

What's the most extreme thing you've done to get a role that you really wanted?

WOODS: Well, "The Onion Field," actually -- speaking of "The Onion Field" -- they had already chosen another man to play the part. And they said I wasn't right because I didn't have blue eyes and blond hair, because, you know, they never heard of makeup.

But so -- so I insisted that I could play the part better, and blah, blah, blah, blah. And I finally went in and I said, look, I want a screen test. That's the least you can do. And I knew that Joe Wambaugh was supposed to be a very fair guy. I said, in fairness you should give me a screen test.

And he said, look, the reality is we can't afford screen tests. So, together my agent and I sold a car and put the money together. And they did a screen test. And the screen test was going to last all day. And they put the camera on me first. And I did one scene, one monologue from the movie, and I knew that I had nailed it through the roof with a nail gun.

And I finished the take, and he said, OK, now next. I said, we're not doing anything next. If you can't tell by now, you'll never know. Goodbye. Good luck with your film. And I walked out, knowing that they'd go, oh. Because I knew that that move, more than the screen test, was going to convince Joe Wambaugh that this is a tough guy.

And it was a tough move because I had a lot on the line. I mean, I was doing what every gambler does, which is you know what, I got an 18. The dealer has a 10. Give me a hit. Give me a card. Give me the three, I know it's coming, you know. And that's what we did.

GROSS: Did you have that planned in advance? Did you know you were going to make that move?

WOODS: No, actually I didn't. It was a kind of spontaneous, seat of the pants move. You know, like all great moves in life you just sort of get a wild hair up your -- and you just say, you know what? I'm going for it. I'm just going to go for it.

I'm just right now, right at this moment, you know, it's like -- with a woman that you fall in love with on first sight and you just say to her, you know what? Instead of doing all that liberal fruity crap that the sensitive man is supposed to do. You know, maybe we should go out to dinner and I should listen to your problems.

You say, I tell you what, how about you and I jump on a plane, go to Paris, get married and lets' go from there. What do you think? I don't know, sometimes it works.

GROSS: And other times it doesn't.

WOODS: Yeah, but, you know, it's only alimony.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: OK, so this got you the part in "The Onion Field."

WOODS: Right.

GROSS: What was the scene that you did?

WOODS: It was a scene where I had to hold a gun on a guy that I was thinking about killing and making the decision while I was talking to him. I was really irritated that he had stolen some dollar bills from a dresser drawer.

And it was a pretty rough scene. And, I don't know, I pulled it off. And it's also one of the best scenes in the picture when we actually did it, because I remember thinking, well, this got me the part I better do it pretty well when we shoot it.

GROSS: Well, why don't we hear that scene?

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "THE ONION FIELD")

JAMES WOODS, ACTOR: So, Billy, my little woman says you took that roll of one dollar bills I had stashed in the bedroom, Billy.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: (Expletive).

WOODS: Yes, it's true she can't find it. And furthermore, I've been told you gave her a little pat on the fanny today. Now, I don't care about the pat. We're sort of a family here. But I'd appreciate you don't make it a habit.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Greg, Please.

WOODS: Billy, I want my dough back.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Maybe she took it.

WOODS: After all I've done for you, and you dare steal from me. Now, I know that whiskey makes you do wrong things or I'd bust a cap in your damn head. Now, Billy, we're going to go out again tonight. Only this time you're going to pull your own weight. And if you don't get me my money.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Anything. Anything.

WOODS: Jimmy, you're in. Can you drive?

FRANKLIN SEALS, ACTOR: Greg, like, I've been away for five years.

WOODS: Dammit, can you drive!

SEALS: Yeah, I can drive. I can drive.

WOODS: Well, all right then.

GROSS: That's James Woods in the film "The Onion Field." So, did you do it in the audition the way it sounds in the scene? Or did you rethink the scene by that?

WOODS: No, actually, no. I follow the same instincts. One of the things that I do, and I think that's one of the reasons "Another Day in Paradise" works so well and it's one of things that was refreshing for me to do as an actor, is that I -- you know, everybody has his or her own particular gifts as an artist and some people have, you know, a certain quiet kind of screen presence that's very magnetic like a Brando for example, or DeNiro -- at their best.

And some people have a kind of frenetic energy that captivates you like a Spencer Tracey or Al Pacino, whatever. And I think one of things that I've been best at is making those kinds of split second decisions and I kind of ad lib pretty well and, I don't, sometimes, stick to the script and so on.

And I think -- I think that there's a certain energy in being really free and taking chances on film. I've always believed that every scene that -- anytime actors talk about, well, I think this happens in their relationship or that happens. I always think well, let's let it happen on screen.

What happens off screen is not very interesting to me. I like to have those moments happen on screen. There's a wonderful scene in "Another Day in Paradise" where we find out that the young girl is pregnant. That the girl that Natasha plays is pregnant. And there was a little scene in a coffee shop. And Melanie gets very very excited. You know, oh, you're having a baby. It's so wonderful.

And in the scene there was just one line where I say, OK, you know, no reason to get so excited about it. You don't have to make a big scene. It's just sort of like a little throwaway line. And Melanie and I were talking it over and doing that kind of actors homework stuff. And she said, you know, it's kind of interesting; we're in our '40s, we have these two young kids around, she's having a baby, we've been junkies for years -- you know, I'm talking about the characters, obviously. And, you know, whatever happened with us? Why didn't we have kids?

And we started doing a back story where maybe she was pregnant. Maybe she had a miscarriage. And there were reasons she did. My character was out, you know, robbing someplace or doing a drug deal or whatever. And how they used to talk like the two kids in the scene are talking about, oh, it will have your eyes and my hair and all that stuff.

And so while she's doing that -- while she's saying, I wonder whose eyes it will have and oh, isn't that wonderful. And she's so enthusiastic about having the baby. I start leaning over -- and we had like four cameras working or something in that scene -- and so it was all improvisational at that moment.

And we didn't tell the kids what we were going to do, and I start really giving her the evil eye. Like what are you doing, man? What are you talking about this stuff? I sort of swear in the movie, so I can't say it on the radio, but I start really kind of giving her a very tough time and she burst into tears and storms out.

And if you watch the scene there's a cut of Natasha, who didn't know this was coming, looking over at Vinny, who plays Bobby, just looking like, oh my God, did something just happen there that -- you know, it was like that awful uncomfortable moment when a couple has a fight and you don't know it's coming, and all of sudden on of them storms out and slams the door and the glass breaks.

And we look like, did we miss something there? And that kind of electricity on screen -- it's a very captivating scene in the film because nobody -- even the other actors kind of didn't know it was coming. And that kind of electricity, to me, is so much more interesting than that sort of cast iron pastry that gets shoveled out of the cinema bakery of the Hollywood movie industry on a weekly basis.

I'm so tired of reading scripts where on page 3 I know what's going to happen on page 110. In this movie, you don't know what's going happen in the next frame, let alone the next line or the next scene. And that to me is the most exciting aspect of filmmaking.

GROSS: James Woods is my guest, and his new film is called "Another Day in Paradise." Let's take a short break and then we'll talk some more.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: James Woods is my guest. He stars in the new movie "Another Day in Paradise."

I want to ask you about your 1984 movie, "Once Upon a Time in America," directed by Sergio Leone.

WOODS: Right.

GROSS: And this is a kind of gangster epic in which -- epic in terms of the way it's shot and the amount of time that it spends and everything. The story that it tells. It's a gangster film starring you and Robert DeNiro. And it traces your friendship, and your rise and fall. It begins in the early 1900s.

I want to play a short scene with you and Robert DeNiro in a car. Here we go.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "ONCE UPON A TIME IN AMERICA")

ROBERT DENIRO, ACTOR: How come you didn't tell me?

JAMES WOODS ACTOR: He thinks I can change it. I'd already made a deal with Frankie to get rid of Joe. With a man like Frankie Manoldi (ph) you don't say yes and then say no. I cannot take the chance you'd change your mind. Do you understand?

DENIRO: Well, you were right. I would have said no.

WOODS: Frankie Manoldi is as big as they come. He's got the combination in the palm of his hand.

DENIRO: If we're not careful, he's going to have us in the palm of his hand.

WOODS: You don't get nowhere alone.

DENIRO: I thought you were the guy who said you didn't like bosses. It sounded like a good idea then. It still is.

WOODS: Let's just think about it, Noodles. They're going to ask us to come in with them. There's a lot in it for us.

DENIRO: Today they ask us to get rid of Joe. Tomorrow they ask me to get rid of you. Is that OK with you? Because it's not OK with me.

GROSS: James Woods, I'm wondering what it was like for you to work with Robert DeNiro, because you seem like such different kinds of actors. Rightly or wrongly, I think of you as a very extroverted person and actor. And I think of DeNiro as probably a very introverted person. You're so verbal. He seems so nonverbal off camera. You know, offstage.

WOODS: Well, actually Bobby is -- that was one of great experiences of my life because he is, I think, one of the greatest actors in the history of cinema. And he is a wonderful guy personally. Very devoted to the work and to his friends. A very loyal man. And we became friends, and have been friends ever since.

He's a very very intelligent guy. Very perceptive about the work and about life and a very sensitive man. And a lot of people think of him as very kind of introverted. His basic nature, that of a compressed, somewhat withdrawn person, having that aura as an actor worked very well for his character.

And the more expansive nature that I sort of seem to have on screen, and I'll take your word for it, worked great for the character I played. And they were supposed to be that way. One was very introverted and one was very extroverted. And it was kind of on the nose casting in that sense.

And, you know, it was also an opportunity for me. I was kind of breaking out then in terms of career possibilities, you know, to be working with then -- I think very few people would argue with you that he was at that time, and has remained, probably the greatest actor in movies in the world today.

GROSS: Do you have different ways of preparing and were you in conflict at all about how to prepare for the role -- prepare for a scene?

WOODS: Well, I think it's one of Bobby's greatest gifts that he is very non judgmental about other actors processes or their results and so on. He's very very supportive of other actors. And he was very well aware of the fact that people saw him as a star, but he never acts in anyway that way. In fact, just the opposite.

The only time I've ever seen Bob act like a star was when he could use his power to help other actors get things they needed to make the part better. In fact, I remember at the time when we did the old age sequence where we were supposed to be in our late 60s, and Bob had this wonderful idea.

He said, you know, you're playing the very successful guy at the end and I'm the guy down and out. And he said, do you ever see those successful guys who've had surgery and they have brand new caps for teeth. They always show older guys with kind of gray, yellow teeth and he said it would be great if you had brand new caps.

And it was very expensive to have done, and the studio didn't want to pay for it or something, and Bob actually paid for it out of his own pocket because he thought it would be great for my character. And I mean, you know, he would never want anybody to sort of give him credit for it and so on. But that's the degree to which Bob DeNiro goes to make the movie better.

I mean, he's an extraordinary man an extraordinary actor. And a great friend. Not only was it not difficult working together, it was a kind of lesson in life and in acting. I learned a lot from him.

GROSS: Did you have a different process for getting in character?

WOODS: Well, we actually didn't. Believe it or not, Bob is one of those people who has a barometer for the truth of a scene. I mean, he's just can't act if the scene isn't right. He just isn't able. He just sort of says, oh, this feels false. He just doesn't know how to do it.

And if the scene is right in the way it's set up and conceived and written and the acting is going pretty well in rehearsals, he just flourishes. He's a natural. And it's not like he puts his foot down or something, he's just not very good at doing -- he just isn't capable of doing bad acting. He's just not capable of it. And he's just a natural when everything's right.

And I have sort of the same instincts. I mean, I have a hard time saying sort of stupidly written lines. I mean, one of the funniest things when you're an actor is people always come up to you and say, how do you remember all those lines? And of course the oddest thing about being an actor is that's the easiest part.

And it's really easy if a scene is really beautifully written. I mean, you could almost half a photographic memory. And if you have trouble remembering a scene it's probably because it's badly written. I mean, bad writing is hard to remember. I'm always amazed when waiters come up and they give you a list of the specials for the evening, I go, how do you remember that crap? Beet juice, squid ink, pasta.

I mean, I couldn't remember it to save my life, but I can remember 10 pages of Shakespeare, you know, in the time it takes me to read it because it's so beautifully written and it makes sense and is logical and it follows. You know, the great thing about great writing is usually what you say next after a character has spoken is what really, at its apex, is what your character would say in that situation.

And if it's great writing like David Mamet or people like that, you know, it's what the person would say but in a tremendously eloquent inventive way.

GROSS: James Woods is my guest. The story goes that you once left an answering machine message for Scorsese -- for Martin Scorsese -- that said, "Any part. Anytime. Anywhere. Any price. True story?

WOODS: That's absolutely true. Absolutely true. He was doing a movie called "Casino," and Bob DeNiro and Joe Pesci, who are both friends of mine, and Sharon Stone were all in it. So when I said to my agent, is there anything in "Casino?" And she said, you know, all the big roles are taken. I don't think there's really anything in it.

I said, you know, I want to work with Marty. He had offered me a part once in another movie and I was not available. I was already committed to another film and wasn't able, contractually, to do it. And everybody wants to work with the great Martin Scorsese. And I said, look, I've got to work with him. And she said, you know, he just doesn't talk to agents much. He has his cast in mind.

She said this is one time, and I would never ordinarily recommend this, but just call him yourself because he responds to actors. And I called and left that message. And he called the next day and said, you know, I was watching "Citizen Cohen" the other night. We were lying in bed -- he and his then girlfriend...

GROSS: You played Roy Cohen in that movie.

WOODS: Yeah, I played Roy Cohen. And he said, I was watching you and I was thinking, gosh, do you think we could get Jimmy Woods for Lester Diamond? And his then girlfriend said, you should ask him. He said, he'll probably be insulted. It's not a very big part, it's only a couple of days work.

And I said, Marty, I'd love to do it. I'd be an extra in a movie you directed, you know. He said, well, this is perfect. Come on and come aboard. And I had more fun in the two or three days I worked on that film. And Marty let me just improvise my way through the whole part.

GROSS: You played Sharon Stone's very flaky old boyfriend...

WOODS: ...right...

GROSS: ...in this. And very predictable, very bizarre behavior.

WOODS: You know, there was a sequence with Sharon where she's getting married to Bobby and she calls me on the phone, from the wedding because she still has a thing for me. I was her pimp and drug dealer in the old days, and her boyfriend that she could never get over.

And Marty said, you know, we should cut away to you because you just sort of hear her talking to me. And I said, well, I'd love to be in a little tiny thong and some cheesy, sleazy robe and have some nude woman with cocaine. And together we're doing all this stuff while I'm talking to her on the phone.

He said well, -- just to show that this guy is just a total flake and doesn't really care about her. But, like all sociopaths, will charm her to death if he thinks he can get something out of it. So, we got this woman to play the extra in her underwear and I'm sitting there in this thong with my gut hanging out. It was hilarious. Doing coke while I'm talking to her.

And Sharon got on the phone from her hotel and I talked to her. And we shot five reels of film of me improvising stuff with Sharon. And Sharon was great in the improvisation, and it was like all this really sexy seductive stuff while I doing blow with some cheesy stripper, right.

And I said to Marty, I said, why are you shooting all this? It's a cut away. He says, I'll find a way to use it. And sure enough, he said, I love the stuff you guys are doing. And sure enough that sequence was used as a voice over -- I mean, you do cut to me with the woman, but it was used as a voice over instead of wedding music by Thelma Schoenmaker (ph), Marty's magnificent editor -- who's a great great editor.

And Marty -- they used that whole improvisation as a voice over motif during the entire wedding. So while she's marrying Bobby in her wedding dress and so on, you hear me talking to her on the phone about how gorgeous she was when she was 14 and how I fell in love with her and all this other stuff. While, of course, I'm cheating on her with another woman. I mean, it was just all of that sort of sleazy crazy stuff that those characters embodied at that time.

GROSS: That's a great story. Why don't we hear that narration that you're talking about. The improvisation that was used as a narrative during the wedding scene.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP -- SCENE FROM FILM "CASINO")

JAMES WOODS, ACTOR: Can you feel my eyes on you? Can you feel me look into your heart? Can you feel me in the pit of your stomach? Can you feel me in you? In your heart? Don't make me come there. Answer me.

SHARON STONE, ACTRESS: I love you.

WOODS: Baby, do you know that I love you too?

STONE: No, Lester.

WOODS: Do you know that?

STONE: Yeah. It's the best thing I can do for my life right now.

WOODS: That's right. So it's going to be OK. I wish you all the luck in the world.

STONE: You do?

WOODS: Yeah, I do. I mean, it's the best thing you can do right now. I mean this. You have real security. Sweetheart, you know to be situated right in Vegas. Come on, this is great for us. You know I'm going to be here for you. I ain't going no place. Huh?

I'm looking at you right now. I'm seeing you for the very first time right this minute. I'm seeing you. I can feel my heart click. I see you 14 years old. I see you the first second I ever saw you. I see you long-legged little colt. Stupid braces on your teeth. Every time I ever see you that's what I say.

STONE: Talk to you later. Bye.

GROSS: James Woods and Sharon Stone in a scene from "Casino." We'll be back with James Woods after a break.

This is FRESH AIR.

BREAK

GROSS: My guest is James Woods.

James Woods, what were you like in high school? What do you think people knew you for?

WOODS: Well, I was voted three things in high school. I was voted most likely to succeed, wittiest, and class clown. So, I was like the guy who they thought was going to do really well, but also was like flinging pennies at Mrs. O'Leary study hall and stuff.

I was sort of a pranskster, but at the same time like sort of the smartest kid in school. But instead of being a geek I was kind of like a prankster. I had a ball and high school. I just had a lot of great friends and we had a school that was actually a very -- I mean, I had like 26 kids in this little class I was in.

We had a big senior class, but there was a small group of us called the academically talented. You know, it was like the smart kids and stuff. They were actually pretty cool, but my class of 26 we all went to Harvard, Yale, MIT, Dartmouth, Brandeis, Georgetown. And it was a pretty smart wonderful group of kids who were of that baby boom generation where, you know, having a great education was a real premium that we all aspired to.

GROSS: Now, I've always heard you had these incredible IQ and SAT scores. And I read last night that in high school you had like a 180 IQ and a perfect 800 score on the verbal part of the SATs, and 779 on math. Are these exaggerated?

WOODS: No. No. No. Actually it was on the English Comp Achievement Test which was -- this is the only I'm proud of. I had run through a glass door in my junior year, and...

GROSS: ...in college or high school?

WOODS: No -- Well, I was actually between the junior and senior year in high school I had gotten a National Science Foundation grant to study linear algebra at UCLA. I went to school in Rhode Island. So I went out there for the summer and I had this accident where I ran through a glass door. And it was before they had safety glass and I severed everything in my right arm but the bone. All the tendons and nerves, everything.

And so I was in the hospital a lot, and I had a series of operations and I had a cast on my arm. And when I took the English Composition Achievement Test, you know, they have the SATs, the two aptitude tests and the achievement test. And also I took the advanced placement test so you could skip your freshman year in college.

And when I took the English Comp test, it was 80 true or false questions or multiple-choice or whatever, and then a little essay. And I open up the test and I said, to the teacher, I said, I can't do this. I'm right-handed and my right hand is in a cast. She said, once the test is open you've got to take it.

And so, I whipped through the 80 questions, and evidently got them all right, and wrote the world's shortest essay left-handed. And it looked like a four-year-old. Because I wrote it like I printed it in block letters and I got an 800 on the test. So, it just goes to show you that sometimes brevity is the soul of wit.

GROSS: What do you say? What was your subject?

WOODS: I can't even remember -- I wish I had that essay still. I mean it was, literally, like 10 lines long. Because I had so little time to do it. Everyone else was writing pages and pages, but I was writing this haiku poem on the subject that they required us to write on. I can't even remember what it was. But I was kind of proud of the fact that sometimes adversity is truly the mother of invention.

GROSS: Was there pressure on you to do whiz kid kinds of things with scores like that? As opposed to acting?

WOODS: Yeah, well, there was. But luckily because I was in a class of kids who were all National Merit finalists and, you know, others had 800 on their college boards in this little class of mine. I sort of took for granted that there were a lot of other people out there with a lot of talent and, you know, the only thing that was going to get you across the finish line, given the fact that we were truly blessed by God with this intellect, was going to be some hard work.

And when I got to my freshman year at MIT the average -- I mean, there were 900 kids in my freshman class and over 400 of them had 800 on their college boards. So you say, oh, I get it. It's that shocking thing that happens to every high school debutante when she goes to Hollywood and realizes that she ain't the prettiest girl in town anymore. She's one of a hundred thousand who have the same aspirations for the same three parts.

GROSS: Right. Right. Right.

WOODS: And I mean, going to the big city is a great leveler for all of us. And, you know, my life has been a constant -- a constant journey down the road to humility. And believe me, the one thing I have learned that is my greatest asset is I have finally, ultimately learned to be humble. And it's fine to be cocky when you're young, you know, when you're young you're supposed to be cocky and a Democrat. When you're older you're supposed be a little wiser and a Republican, I guess. Joke.

GROSS: Are there any lines either from films you've been in or films that you love and that you've always loved that really stand out in your mind? Just like examples of absolutely great dialogue?

WOODS: Well, I don't know if it's great dialogue, but I've lived my life by it. There's a wonderful line in "Walk on the Wild Side" where the guy says "I've learned three things in life. And if you know these things you'll never go wrong. Never eat food at a place called `Moms.' Never play cards with a guy called Doc. And never go to bed with a woman who has more problems than you do." In which case I'd still be a virgin, but you know.

LAUGHTER

GROSS: And favorite line of dialogue that you've said in your movies?

WOODS: I mean, just differ ones and right now I'm blanking. I can't remember movies I did last year. It's weird. I don't go to watch my movies unless I'm forced to like at a premier or something, because the exercise of seeing yourself on screen, believe it or not, is really unsettling.

There's a sort of flood of narcissism that you can't help but experience that I think is very detrimental to you as a person. And I never could understand how some actors would sort of shy away from the celebrity aspects of being a cinema star. And now I so understand it.

It's like a little creepy to see yourself all blown up there kind of larger than life and so on. Because the fundamental, existential reality is that none of us is going to live to the year 2100. So, you know, when you face those fundamental realities of having your big honker up there on the screen, you know, 40 feet high is not really much of a solace. So I try to be a little more level about the realities of life.

GROSS: Well, James Woods, a pleasure to talk with you. I want thank you very much.

WOODS: Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.

GROSS: James Woods is starring in the new movie "Another Day in Paradise." It opens January 22nd in New York, Los Angeles, San Francisco and Seattle. And will open in more cities in February.

I'm Terry Gross.

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Dateline: Terry Gross, Host
Guest: James Woods
High: Actor-producer James Woods. He's currently starring in the new film, "Another Day in Paradise" based on the semi-autobiographical novel of ex-con Eddie Little. It's about a makeshift family of professional thieves looking for the big score and is directed by Larry Clark who made the gritty film "Kids." Woods' previous films include "Salvador," Ghosts of Mississippi," The Onion Field," and "Contact."
Spec: Entertainment; Movie Industry; Profile; Culture; Lifestyle; James Woods

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Copy: Content and programming copyright 1999 WHYY, Inc. All rights reserved. Transcribed by FDCH, Inc. under license from WHYY, Inc. Formatting copyright 1999 FDCH, Inc. All rights reserved. No quotes from the materials contained herein may be used in any media without attribution to WHYY, Inc. This transcript may not be reproduced in whole or in part without prior written permission.
End-Story: James Woods
Transcripts are created on a rush deadline, and accuracy and availability may vary. This text may not be in its final form and may be updated or revised in the future. Please be aware that the authoritative record of Fresh Air interviews and reviews are the audio recordings of each segment.